Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Byegod]

If you actually go into the Strange Fake dialogue where that idea came from, it is not totally about Noble Phantasms and what not.

Really the idea is that Dead Apostles are "anti-human".

To put it into RPG terms, Dead Apostles have a "Protection from Humans" buff. Anything tagged with "Human", be it spells or attacks, do 0 damage. ("Dead Apostles are snakes, and humans are frogs")
To get around this, either the weapon has to be transcendental or the attacker has to be transcendental. E.g. Heroic Spirit using a human weapon, or human using a divine weapon.


The idea is neat, but I don't think it will overturn anything.
Most Heroic Spirits are partially divine or partially monstrous. Or use some divine weapon. The pure human Heroic Spirits tend to be scrublords most of the time.

Except how do you even get around that? we have seen dead apostles die to like curses and non christian magic. Like the bee guy in zero died to a subtle curse from whats her face, so unless all magic bypasses that doesnt seem like much of a protection

[Hawkeye]

Except how do you even get around that? we have seen dead apostles die to like curses and non christian magic. Like the bee guy in zero died to a subtle curse from whats her face, so unless all magic bypasses that doesnt seem like much of a protection

Natalia Kaminski? Isn't she part-succubus like Merlin? Maybe her curse didn't count towards human magic.

[Best Girl]

Except how do you even get around that? we have seen dead apostles die to like curses and non christian magic. Like the bee guy in zero died to a subtle curse from whats her face, so unless all magic bypasses that doesnt seem like much of a protection

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, it just says the Dead Apostle rejects Human History. However, they are not immune to things of higher level.

If you think about it, most spells have some sort of Divine or super natural origin. Even the stupid Gandr shot is technically a descendant of Runic magic (which were created by the gods).

Also, the Dead/Dead Apostles get hurt by things they believe in. Most of them share the same Magical Foundation as humans, so if they use it, then they believe it. Therefore, they get hurt by it.

I don't know bro, fan-wank something.

[Menwearpink]

Arash's thing is that he's a guy randomly born into the Age of Man with Age of Gods stats, so he could be a good metric for this.

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Actually, Arash is pretty strong even for AoG standards, so maybe disregard that.

Do you count the Shahnameh heroic period as Age of Man? Arash is heavily blessed by the gods to begin with so I wouldn't say he's really an Age of Man guy with Age of God stuff.

To begin with doesn't the Pishdadian dynasty predate recorded history as a mythological line of kings. They're suppose to predate the Achaemenid Empire.

[Takashi]

Except how do you even get around that? we have seen dead apostles die to like curses and non christian magic. Like the bee guy in zero died to a subtle curse from whats her face, so unless all magic bypasses that doesnt seem like much of a protection

Actually it's anti human history. Noble phantasms are product of human history. They also said it would be different if a heroic spirit of the throne uses the noble phantasm.

[Nanaya]

So since NPs can only hurt dead apostles if they are wielded by heroic spirits from the throne, does this mean heroic spirits back when they were alive and not on the throne yet wouldn't be able to scratch your average dead apostle? Also, does this protection against NPs include skill NPs like Nine Lives or only weapon NPs?

It's just a compatibility issue going by how SFS frames it. Vampires are Shedinja from pokemon with an extra hidden ability on top so a whole bunch of shit isn't supposed to work. Thus you need powerful magic, super powers, consecrated weapons, the right kind of NP, plot hax etc to get past them. Some heroes probably get walled while others have options while they were living. Immunity would also probably be affected by both the worlds foundation and the depth of the vampires individual curse. I wouldn't be surprised if something like excal just failed against a mook vampire if not used by a HS that affirms history.

[Kamera]

Do you count the Shahnameh heroic period as Age of Man? Arash is heavily blessed by the gods to begin with so I wouldn't say he's really an Age of Man guy with Age of God stuff.

To begin with doesn't the Pishdadian dynasty predate recorded history as a mythological line of kings. They're suppose to predate the Achaemenid Empire.

Shahnameh has clear Age classifications. The Mythical Age (i. e Age of God) begins with the first King Keyumars up to King Manuchehr (where Arash lived). The Heroic and Historical Ages where the Shahnameh took place are probably the Age of Fairies and the Age of Man respectively in TM. That said, with this in mind Arash still technically lived in the Age of Gods, even if at the very end of it.

[Best Girl]

Actually it's anti human history. Noble phantasms are product of human history. They also said it would be different if a heroic spirit of the throne uses the noble phantasm.

Technically Christianity is part of Human History. The Baptism Rite is invoking the Divine, but it is very much a human ritual with a human Foundation.

I guess it is more "resistant to Human History", not immune to Human History.

[Hyug]

Technically Christianity is part of Human History. The Baptism Rite is invoking the Divine, but it is very much a human ritual with a human Foundation.

I guess it is more "resistant to Human History", not immune to Human History.

Aren't noble phantasms a manifestation of human history though? They aren't just something humanity made like most magecraft.

[Best Girl]

Aren't noble phantasms a manifestation of human history though? They aren't just something humanity made like most magecraft.

The mechanism is "rejection of Human History", so you would expect them to be resistant to more things, since Human History is such a broad concept.

[Comun]

Aren't noble phantasms a manifestation of human history though?

Not always. Bazett's Fragarach has history, but it's still the actual preserved artifact rather than a manifestation of what it did.

[Hawkeye]

Not always. Bazett's Fragarach has history, but it's still the actual preserved artifact rather than a manifestation of what it did.

If I'm following right, so weapon type NPs descended from Divinity would have the best shot, followed by other general artifact types, then those that are based on an anecdote or event would be least effective?

[Mattias]

Umm... she's Tokiomi's wife, not Kariya's.

Kariya's Lancelots Plan:

Step 1: Beat that dapper asshole Tokiomi
Step 2: Aoi dumps his ass and gets with the real hero
Step 3: Adultry
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit

[Nanaya]

I think artifacts in general would be subject to the immunity depending on if they fall into the made for humans criteria. Church tricks are super effective probably because they're the strongest supernatural org and their tech is also designed as anti-heresy. They force natural laws the vampire was subject to as a human once again onto their body. There is also the bit about a vampire's own religion and what they're familiar with while a human playing a part in effectiveness in purification. There is still a ton we don't know about the Church and God and everything so let's go more Tsuki content.

[Byegod]

Except it was clearly related to NPs used by humans and not servants in that context, and i have to question if thats 100% absoloute or only until they like fully acclimatize to them

[Mattias]

Are they even technically Noble Phantasms before the person dies? Or is it the acts of heroism during life that turn a magic item into an NP in the place? It's basically the manifestation of a hero's myth, so why would such a thing exist before the myth exists?

[AmADo VII]

is Nananko a noble phantasm?

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Are they even technically Noble Phantasms before the person dies? Or is it the acts of heroism during life that turn a magic item into an NP in the place? It's basically the manifestation of a hero's myth, so why would such a thing exist before the myth exists?

I'm leaning more to the latter. NP is a really broad definition that refers to 'conceptual effects' contained within things and people in question. I think what makes an NP NP is either the feats that were performed with it,
or the stories associated with it. For example, Balmung is originally just a fancy sword before it was used to kill Evil Dragon Fafnir by Siegfried, earning the attribute "Supereffective to Dragons" from it along with the wielder.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

is Nananko a noble phantasm?

Not yet. But she'll be once Ciel is playable in Tsuki collab.

Not exactly a joke, since it makes me think of another criteria for NP qualification; relationship with history/legend/myth. Fragarach counts as an NP due to it existing all the way back in the Age of Gods, as a gift to the Fragas from their patron god, same goes for Avalon which state is kept pristine to still be able to function, and also Rings of Solomon.

When HS are summoned as Servants, the objects associated with them when they were alive(existed in case of legends and myths) gain qualification as NP, like Billy's Thunderer despite it should be just normal firearm back in his day. This is also how Kiritsugu's weapons count as NP.

[AmADo VII]

I'm pretty sure all Burial Agency member will have no problem killing Jester.

wonder if their weapons (if they have) are equivalent to NP.