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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #148721
    Presia messe noce yor tes mea TwilightsCall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post

    image





    Alaya governs pruning.
    Well that's interesting.

    First of all that Alaya is now apparently equal to the universe:

    Quote Originally Posted by Extella Mats - Compiled Events and Pruned Events
    分かりきった結末の為に宇宙はエネルギーを使わない。
    まだ誰も知り得ない どれほど高次の生命体でも見通せない“未来”のために宇宙は膨張し続ける のだか
    The universe will not expend energy to create an ending where it already knows what will happen. This is because the universe continues to expand towards a “future” that no one has seen before, that not even a life form of a higher order could predict.
    On top of Leftovers point of Alaya apparently managing the energy reserves of the entire universe.

    And what I would find most baffling is why Alaya would bother. What does Alaya care about the energy-state of the multiverse? Why does the collective unconscious of mankind even exist in a trans-universal state in the first place (I understand this is already the case regardless wrt the Throne of Heroes, but my point still stands)? Why is the collective unconscious of mankind deliberately and specifically wiping out timelines in which humanity's perpetual survival is guaranteed?

    And plenty more questions of that ilk.

    "Real life is a no-win game" seems like the kind of message they were very much going for when they made this part, but it just seems absurd that the enemy that has decided people never get to win is the people themselves. At least an external source of the phenomenon would make some sort of recognizable conflict out of it that could be explored, but how on earth am I supposed to accept the fact that the players of the game intentionally changed the rules to make the game they were playing unwinnable?
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  2. #148722
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    I think it ties into Extra's idea on how humanity needs good and bad things to progress which is why both Leo and Twice are wrong. With the idea being that if humanity reaches a place where it stagnates it loses the human spirit and stops being kept within the parallel worlds.

    As for why it manages energy states uh, do some mad libs with the words Primate, System, Humanity, Throne, and Sefar and you'll probably come out with an answer as coherent as my memories of Extellas late game plot.

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  3. #148723
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    In LB3's discussion about the pruning of utopias, Jing Ke explains that "perfect means complete, and complete means finished". Utopias are stories that already reached its happy ending. Pruned timelines are all stories that reached an ending, be it a good or a bad end, and by this metaphor, Alaya should be the manga publisher ensuring their magazine doesn't keep publishing any series past its final chapter.

  4. #148724
    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    It's the same old " A world without conflict is dead. If things aren't moving, all they do is rot." from FSN. Nothing more, nothing less.

    - - - Updated - - -


    The fact that dead-end timelines are pruned just make the Sixth MORE dreadful, not less. It means that sooner or later all ​of the timelines will be pruned.

    Thats what we were referring too dude, eventually everything ends they get fucking retconn'd out of existence, that just means the humanity is actively hampering itself and stuff

  5. #148725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Thats what we were referring too dude, eventually everything ends they get fucking retconn'd out of existence, that just means the humanity is actively hampering itself and stuff
    Are the universes actually deleted or do they just stop getting looked at by the human unconscious? The infodump in Extella is talking about the universe of awareness and Nasu tends to get pretty wacky with the ontology of stuff. Is this a case where it's actually being destroyed or stopped or what have you or one where it's being like "It can't be seen so it basically doesn't exist"?

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  6. #148726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extella Mats - Quantum Time Lock
    この宇宙は無数の可能性を許容し、多くの並行世界、違う展開の歴史を生み出している。
    しかしそれを際限なく行うと宇宙の寿命が尽きてしまう為、一定のタイミングで「もっとも強く、安定性を持ったルート」から外れた特例の 世界ルート を伐採し、エネルギーの無駄な消費を防いできた。
    The universe allows for countless possibilities. As such, numerous adjacent worlds with differing histories are born.
    But if that process continues without limit, the life span of the universe would be exhausted, so at set intervals those worlds that have deviated from the "strongest, most stable route" are cut down, in order to prevent the needless waste of energy.
    Seems pretty cut and dry to me. The word used for "cutting down" different time lines means "to cut down/fell (a tree)," so if they aren't being destroyed then that mats book has some explaining to do.
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  7. #148727
    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Thats what we were referring too dude, eventually everything ends they get fucking retconn'd out of existence, that just means the humanity is actively hampering itself and stuff
    How is that hampering anything? The branch that gets culled is an entirely different timeline to wherever [you] exist and all the stuff that happened in that world isn't gonna have any effect on your world whether it's pruned or not.

    Also tbh the question of "why does alaya care about the universe having finite energy" seems kinda obvious to me. If Alaya is humanity's prayer for survival, and everything it does is to ensure humanity's continued survival, then obviously it would not want the universe to end due to heat death or whatever.
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  8. #148728
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    How is that hampering anything? The branch that gets culled is an entirely different timeline to wherever [you] exist and all the stuff that happened in that world isn't gonna have any effect on your world whether it's pruned or not.

    Also tbh the question of "why does alaya care about the universe having finite energy" seems kinda obvious to me. If Alaya is humanity's prayer for survival, and everything it does is to ensure humanity's continued survival, then obviously it would not want the universe to end due to heat death or whatever.
    Use this highschoolers One Weird Trick to learn the Fifth Magic. The counter-force hates her!

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  9. #148729
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwilightsCall View Post
    Seems pretty cut and dry to me. The word used for "cutting down" different time lines means "to cut down/fell (a tree)," so if they aren't being destroyed then that mats book has some explaining to do.
    The implication has always been that they basically get the Thanos snap and just... cease existing. Obviously the context has changed since then and might not be representative of actual pruning, but LB2 has a lingering scene were the Local Lostbelt Companion (TM) skips in the air, a wind blows through, and the LLC never lands.

    Also, well, all the timeline diagrams in Extella where the sidequest timelines continue for a bit... and then just stop after varying lengths, presumably when they're beaten by Sefar.

  10. #148730
    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    How is that hampering anything? The branch that gets culled is an entirely different timeline to wherever [you] exist and all the stuff that happened in that world isn't gonna have any effect on your world whether it's pruned or not.

    Also tbh the question of "why does alaya care about the universe having finite energy" seems kinda obvious to me. If Alaya is humanity's prayer for survival, and everything it does is to ensure humanity's continued survival, then obviously it would not want the universe to end due to heat death or whatever.
    See the thing is we know of multiple things with infinite energy or that fuck with thermodynamics, it seems a bit strange for it to care and it feels weird that the whole energy argument i cannot recall ever being brought up post extella

    Plus i want nasu to define progress, what does he mean by it? pruning seemed to occur in the AOG based on the lostbelts, so what happened there to justify not pruning?

    hell if its a physical constraint that requires a necessary evil doesnt that actively detract from goetia's plan since he would either have to cull or not make any alternate timelines.
    Last edited by Byegod; September 28th, 2020 at 06:31 PM.

  11. #148731
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    I mean in Altera's prologue we get to know what happens when that specific Dimension doesn't cull timelines, it'll exceed the capacity and collapse the Solar System. So it isn't like there's effects mentioned that go beyond the SS. Or at the very least, I don't see pruning deleting stuff outside the scope of the SS.

  12. #148732
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    Our only example of actual pruning is Shimousa, which is described by Douman not a Lostbelt (
    unusual story line
    異聞帯
    ), but actually a Missing Belt (
    lost history
    失われた歴史
    ). While the Lostbelts are all but stated to be made by the alien god/the Animusphere, Shimousa was an actual pruned timeline used as a test run for the Lostbelts, and it's just there, existing and accessible to any dream powers-having protagonist.

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    Ah, so this is why Dantes will always be prevalent.

  14. #148734
    Did shimosa cease to exist or does it still exist after well shimosa

  15. #148735
    Quote Originally Posted by Peanut-007 View Post
    Use this highschoolers One Weird Trick to learn the Fifth Magic. The counter-force hates her!
    "The whole universe will die because of Aoko" is a worrying thought, yes.
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  16. #148736
    Quote Originally Posted by TwilightsCall View Post

    "Real life is a no-win game" seems like the kind of message they were very much going for when they made this part, but it just seems absurd that the enemy that has decided people never get to win is the people themselves.At least an external source of the phenomenon would make some sort of recognizable conflict out of it that could be explored, but how on earth am I supposed to accept the fact that the players of the game intentionally changed the rules to make the game they were playing unwinnable?
    Because the goal of these players isn't to win, it's to keep playing the game forever.
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  17. #148737
    love warrior <3 world-0 the god of world-0's Avatar
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    To me, it seems that Alaya is looking for a very specific happy ending, instead of a general one. Probably the one Gil mentions


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  18. #148738
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    Maybe Alaya wants to expand the human order, so it's best if as many timelines as possible have humanity achieve space travel. That's why it also deletes "good ends", because those worlds have no reason to progress anymore, thus it's a waste of energy for Alaya to keep them going.
    In any case a world has to be deleted for the whole thing to keep existing, so it's better to keep the timelines which actually have potential for evolution and make the human order stronger. It doesn't mean humans will never achieve an actual good end, but that their good end is one where civilization keep progressing instead of being stagnant. Especially because "stagnant = bad, working hard for the future = good" has been a relevant theme for a while in Fate.

    Also, is it possible that each alien civilization across the universe has its own tree and related culling? It would make more sense if Alaya only governed the solar system and not the whole thing.

  19. #148739
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    Quote Originally Posted by the god of world-0 View Post
    To me, it seems that Alaya is looking for a very specific happy ending, instead of a general one. Probably the one Gil mentions

    Pretty much.

    The golden ending that you get by a super special miracle (see all the atlas alchemists going insane because the end of the world is inevitable/impossible to defy) is the Age of Will. The super special part that's the future that's cool the same way the Age of the Gods was the past that was cool.

    The way I explain it personally is that Age of Gods is when you're a kid and your parents are taking care of you, and you get to have fun. Parts of being a kid suck but all in all it's nice. Age of Man is the part where you're in your adolescence, grow more independent and eventually go to college and struggle to become an adult and learn and become more able as you live with less and less total support from your parents.

    Only it turns out graduating is hard, so you end up failing and flunking or you get messed up by bad events. Or maybe you quit college because your grandpa dies and you inherit a bunch of money and you become someone who just coasts off your inheritance without growing as a person much more or something like that.

    But if you become a proper independent self-actualized person that's the "golden end" so to speak I guess that allows for further progress also.

  20. #148740
    Presia messe noce yor tes mea TwilightsCall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    Because the goal of these players isn't to win, it's to keep playing the game forever.
    The problem is that doing that dooms them to lose. And when they lose, everyone dies.

    Humanity being doomed to destroy itself is fine as a trope and all, but it kind of falls a bit flat for me when the supernatural force whose sole purpose is ensuring humanity survives is burning away every single branch that guarantees humanity's perpetual survival.
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