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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #151061
    Drunk Anime Is The True Path. Mattias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menwearpink View Post
    I mean Fate/Stay Night exists for Medea wank.

    If anything other casters need to try to reach her level.
    Yet for all her focus in the VN, she's still the only OG servant who's hasn't gotten a SR version.

    Well Kojiro too, but as a not-quite-a servant, it actually fits him.

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  2. #151062
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    He's also the dragon slayer of France despite this, so good on him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Speaking of Kojiro, in his fights with Artoria in UBW, she only dodges Tsubame Gaeshi the first time because of her Instinct Rank B, and the second time, she wins because the tip of Kojiro's Monohoshizo is chipped. Could better swordsmen among the KoTR, like Lancelot, or really any other better swordsmen, outright counter the move at its best? I wasn't sure if this fit better here or in Badass Vs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  3. #151063
    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattias View Post
    Yet for all her focus in the VN, she's still the only OG servant who's hasn't gotten a SR version.

    Well Kojiro too, but as a not-quite-a servant, it actually fits him.
    m e d e a l i l y
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  4. #151064
    祖 Ancestor OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattias View Post
    Yet for all her focus in the VN, she's still the only OG servant who's hasn't gotten a SR version.

    Well Kojiro too, but as a not-quite-a servant, it actually fits him.
    Well, Kojiro has been buffed so much, I'm half-convinced he rivals some higher-rarity Servants in term of utilities.
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  5. #151065
    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    Well, Kojiro has been buffed so much, I'm half-convinced he rivals some higher-rarity Servants in term of utilities.
    I mean lore-wise he kinda sucks for like anything beyond his ideal circumstances. He shines in a battle that plays solely by his rules and ignores Noble Phantasms. He's impressive but he's not really functional outside of being a gatekeeper in a bounded field that makes noble phantasms and magecraft unable to just nuke him to death from the other side of the city...


    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    He's also the dragon slayer of France despite this, so good on him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Speaking of Kojiro, in his fights with Artoria in UBW, she only dodges Tsubame Gaeshi the first time because of her Instinct Rank B, and the second time, she wins because the tip of Kojiro's Monohoshizo is chipped. Could better swordsmen among the KoTR, like Lancelot, or really any other better swordsmen, outright counter the move at its best? I wasn't sure if this fit better here or in Badass Vs.
    They'll eat shit tbh.

    its instinct that let her figure out the gap and let her beat it after all.

  6. #151066
    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    He's also the dragon slayer of France despite this, so good on him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Speaking of Kojiro, in his fights with Artoria in UBW, she only dodges Tsubame Gaeshi the first time because of her Instinct Rank B, and the second time, she wins because the tip of Kojiro's Monohoshizo is chipped. Could better swordsmen among the KoTR, like Lancelot, or really any other better swordsmen, outright counter the move at its best? I wasn't sure if this fit better here or in Badass Vs.
    The whole point is that you cannot counter it with regular sword play. You are attacked from all sides simultaneously like a swallow trapped in a cage.
    However, at the end of the day, you are just getting stabbed.
    If you can tank the stabs, it's no big deal.

    Tsubame Gaeshi was only a big deal in Fate because Sabre was so nerfed by being Shirou's servant that such a mook actually poses a threat.
    Regular fully charge Sabre would probably just vaporize him with the gate when she recognizes the trick.

  7. #151067
    Even Super Rin Saber can't quite mana burst hard enough to reduce the damage to 0 against a beheading strike.

    The problem is that the type of people who can just tank it are people like Jiegfriedo or Herc.

    uhh basically its lined up as a crit hit, so its a problem of avoiding a crit/fatal hit that's impossible to dodge too.

    Regular fully charge Sabre would probably just vaporize him with the gate when she recognizes the trick.





    In normal circumstances Saber could just Strike Air Kojirou if not for Medea's Boundary. But you can't recognize the trick due to his skill, or rather it'll be 100% effective no matter how many times he spams any sort of move or swordplay.

  8. #151068
    Quote Originally Posted by Menwearpink View Post
    Even Super Rin Saber can't quite mana burst hard enough to reduce the damage to 0 against a beheading strike.

    The problem is that the type of people who can just tank it are people like Jiegfriedo or Herc.

    uhh basically its lined up as a crit hit, so its a problem of avoiding a crit/fatal hit that's impossible to dodge too.


    In normal circumstances Saber could just Strike Air Kojirou if not for Medea's Boundary. But you can't recognize the trick due to his skill, or rather it'll be 100% effective no matter how many times he spams any sort of move or swordplay.[/B]
    I think you are giving it way too much credit.

    The whole situation was very arbitrary in the story. Kojiro was set up with the all the advantage he could get to force a close-quarter, no-NP fight.

    Most of the time, you don't have to fight by Kojiro's terms.

    If you fight by his terms, you are just getting cut. This ain't Gae Bolg where you automatically have your core shattered. It's 1-3 stabs depending on how lucky you are.
    Mooks may die to it. A-tier servants I doubt will die in one round. And they won't let Kojiro to have a round 2.

  9. #151069
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    The question is if any other Servant's godlike/transcendent swordplay could somehow counter it, and also, since Saber was able to dodge with Instinct, what about other Servants with Eye of the Mind (False) or similar such skills?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, Kojiro held of Herc, so...
    Last edited by SirGauoftheSquareTable; September 20th, 2021 at 09:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  10. #151070
    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    The question is if any other Servant's godlike/transcendent swordplay could somehow counter it, and also, since Saber was able to dodge with Instinct, what about other Servants with Eye of the Mind (False) or similar such skills?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, Kojiro held of Her, so...
    Counter or dodging it physically? No, and that's the whole point. He is cheating by distorting time-space so you cannot do anything about it.

    The only way to counter it would be through other Mysteries or distorting Causality (which is what Instinct is).

    I was kind of getting at you can probably "counter" it by face-tanking it if you are a good Servant.

  11. #151071
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    So basically, if someone else's swordplay could also distort causality, they could find a way out?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  12. #151072
    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    So basically, if someone else's swordplay could also distort causality, they could find a way out?
    Theoretically yes.

    Realistically no.

    It is made pretty clear that frank Destiny-interference/distortion of Causality is realm of the divine. See god weapons like Gae Bolg and Fragarach.

  13. #151073
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    I thought we had a few of those, or at least Musashi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  14. #151074
    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    I thought we had a few of those, or at least Musashi.
    Not physically with regular sword play though. It's like a paradox. If one of your techniques results in Destiny-interference, it would become a Noble Phantasm, thus not "regular sword play". See the example of Gae Bolg.

    Musashi would have to use Noble Phantasm, which is what I am getting at. You have to counter Tsubame Gaeshi with Mystery or Destiny-Interference.

    Sabre countered it with regular sword play, which is unusual. However, in her case Tsubame Gaeshi was not launched in full or in ideal circumstances.
    Last edited by Araya's Dry Cleaner; September 20th, 2021 at 10:23 PM.

  15. #151075
    Super Moderator Comun's Avatar
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    That's not the fairest example because Musashi is sorta defined by winning against Kojirou. She has a Skill that practically just says "Not hit by Tsubame Gaeshi".

  16. #151076
    祖 Ancestor OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Empyrean Eye. Though if they're by themselves, without third party to observe, they're doomed to fight forever.

    The way they're described; TG let Kojiro branched the event into three possible paths, and EE made it so that only one path, the one Musashi wanted, will happen, which then TG branched into three paths again. It's a neverending loop.

    EDIT: Oh. He's talking about Voidless. Welp, I stand corrected.
    Last edited by OnesFleetingGlory; September 20th, 2021 at 10:56 PM.
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  17. #151077
    一心浄土 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    Empyrean Eye. Though if they're by themselves, without third party to observe, they're doomed to fight forever.

    The way they're described; TG let Kojiro branched the event into three possible paths, and EE made it so that only one path, the one Musashi wanted, will happen, which then TG branched into three paths again. It's a neverending loop.
    That is not what Comun is referring to. It's this skill:

    Voidless : A

    The highest rank a swordsman can attain. The ultimate mental state. Equivalent to the Yagyuu Shikage-ryuu’s Suigetsu.
    Becoming voidless is, consequently, becoming invincible. Only a swordsman who has achieved mental Infinity can perceive voidlessness.
    Not even a slash that uses the Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon can reach someone voidless.


    夢想一心

  18. #151078
    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    The question is if any other Servant's godlike/transcendent swordplay could somehow counter it, and also, since Saber was able to dodge with Instinct, what about other Servants with Eye of the Mind (False) or similar such skills?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, Kojiro held of Herc, so...
    Tis impressive, but he held off Herc with Medea debuffing Herc and having the territory advantage too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Araya's Dry Cleaner View Post
    Counter or dodging it physically? No, and that's the whole point. He is cheating by distorting time-space so you cannot do anything about it.

    The only way to counter it would be through other Mysteries or distorting Causality (which is what Instinct is).

    I was kind of getting at you can probably "counter" it by face-tanking it if you are a good Servant.
    Well, Artoria is a very tanky servant who can reduce a lot of damage with Mana Burst, with Knight of the Round super armor.

    I feel like if your criteria for facetanking is people who can ignore Tsubame Gaeshi then it's kind of hard.

    Most cases of servants being able to tank attacks doesn't come from like, tanking hits without any mitigation. Even karna's armor won't save you from Noble Phantasms and such given that Saber Alter gets defeated and practically killed by 10% of Bellerophon Pegasus's charge for example.

  19. #151079
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Besides, there have to be a few Servants good enough to at least mitigate the damage TG can do through sheer skill, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  20. #151080
    Quote Originally Posted by Menwearpink View Post
    Tis impressive, but he held off Herc with Medea debuffing Herc and having the territory advantage too.



    Well, Artoria is a very tanky servant who can reduce a lot of damage with Mana Burst, with Knight of the Round super armor.

    I feel like if your criteria for facetanking is people who can ignore Tsubame Gaeshi then it's kind of hard.

    Most cases of servants being able to tank attacks doesn't come from like, tanking hits without any mitigation. Even karna's armor won't save you from Noble Phantasms and such given that Saber Alter gets defeated and practically killed by 10% of Bellerophon Pegasus's charge for example.
    Again though, I think you are giving Tsubame Gaeshi too much credit.

    At the end of the day, it's 3 sword stabs. Even 10% of Bellerophon is way more powerful than it, because you are getting rammed by a Phantasmal Beast and getting hosed with high rank anti-army magnitude effect.

    The gimmick of Tsubame Gaeshi is the Magic level phenomenon, not overwhelming damage.

    You can argue that "the hits are all aiming for the face", but then again most anime hits are aiming for the face and people don't seem to die.
    It's a neat trick that works well in very specific circumstances.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Besides, there have to be a few Servants good enough to at least mitigate the damage TG can do through sheer skill, right?
    Probably ya, but the idea is that you are getting stabbed at least once.

    The hope is that you don't die like a bitch from the stab that gets you.

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