Was it ever explained how/why Shiki was the only one able to hear Nero's dogs barking during the first night in Tsukihime?
I remember seeing a previous post mention something about Nero 'thinking out loud too hard' or something like that, but I'm not sure if it relates to that.
Hi everyone, I've got a question today.
So in FGO JP for Medeas "Hecatic Graea" spell, aka her beam spamu, we were given ruby text to it. which according to the translation on fandom it gives
"Words of Divine mage formula, Bride of Ashes"
I thought this was interesting because of the starting protion. Is this implying that the divine words have a magic formula? I had heard before they didn't but I'm unsure. Also the bride of ashes part I'm guessing alludes to the princess glauce situation, which is interesting aswell. Since we know "Hecatic" Means hecate, as hecatic wheel which coms from faker who is related in some way to Hecate, is described in its description that Hecatic is derived from hecate.
If I'm misunderstanding or there is some error feel free to let me know.
(Incase my question is confusing. I'm asking if Divine words use a magic formula, since I thought that was only a modern thing.)
Any thoughts or answers on this? Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Duvie; September 16th, 2021 at 09:21 PM.
There is nothing that explicitly states that Magic Formulas are only a modern thing. Maybe it means that the Divine Words is a directly spoken magic formula, accessed witout a magic circuit.
If you dig back to Complete Materials books, you get some definitions.
The basis of any magecraft style is a Magical Foundation, and the Foundation really is just a collection of Magical Formulas. The Magical Foundation can take the form of any mysticism or religion.
For example, under the Magical Foundation of Catholicism, you have Magical Formulas (spells/rituals) for baptism and various burial rites.
Some of these Foundations can be super old, as old as history basically.
Between Age of Gods magecraft and Age of Men magecraft, I do not believe Foundation and Formulas have changed. Some Foundations, like Runic Magic, certainly date back to Age of Gods. They are still in use today.
The only thing changed would be how you power the Formulas.
Due to the thinning of ether/magical power in the atmosphere and decline of the species of man, commanding the World to power Formulas is no longer feasible.
As a result, you have to tap into Circuits and convert mana to power the Formulas.
In other words, I do not believe High Speed Divine Words bypasses the entire basis of magecraft. It just bypasses the Circuit part, which is a modern/AD era thing.
To bypass the entire basis, then you are talking Unified Language, God Word Mayday tier stuff.
Last edited by Araya's Dry Cleaner; September 16th, 2021 at 11:45 PM.
Originally Posted by Araya's Dry Cleaner
魔術基盤
世界に刻みつけられた魔術理論。人々の信仰や無意識によって、この効果は大きく強化される。
神秘は広まれば広まるほど力を失う。しかし、知名度が高いほど安定するという、一見矛盾した事柄が成立する のは、この魔術基盤というシステムのため。現行世界において最も広大かつ強大な魔術基盤は、聖堂教会による 『神の教え』そのものである。
もっとも、家伝の魔術はこうした魔術基盤を利用せず、個人の魔術式だけで成立するし、フラットのように「毎 回魔術式を新しく構築する」などという変態も存在する。「本人も言っていたが、骨を使ったあの錬金術は、つまり自分の体を利用している魔術だ。これは時計塔でも言 われていることだが、現実世界からの反動が生じない分、おおよその神秘は体の内側の方が運用しやすくてね。 アトラス院の錬金術師は魔術回路が少なく、自然干渉系の魔術を使うことはまずないと言われていたが、なるほ ど六源においてはああいう変則的な神秘を確立していたわけだ。ああ、体の中だけで完結するなら、魔術基盤も 必要あるまい。ひょっとすると、六源の家系に限っては、魔術回路自体が変異しているのかもしれ ない」「アトラス院の錬金術といえど、神秘に根ざすものは魔力で動いている。君の骨──エグゾフォルムなんかはそ の典型例だ。肉体に根ざしているからこそ、魔術基盤もなしで強固に成立する神秘。ならば、君の肉体の外に出 た部分については、むしろ外部からの干渉を受けやすいんじゃないか？ そういう風に考えたんだ 」一陣の風が、地底に吹く。
その禍々しい風に触れるや、数千にも膨れ上がった莫大な数のルーンの炎が、
たちまち鎮火していったのだ。
「神の名をもって英霊を焼くというアイディアはいい。量も申し分ない。しかし、その術式では直接神のカケラ を呼び起こす私の方が有利とは思わなかったか？」
フェイカーの言葉は、現代の魔術師とは違い、直接神の権能のカケラを借り受ける神代の魔術師ゆえだったか 。神代から離れ、多くの自然現象が神霊としての形を失っても、契約を結んだ神代の魔術師は、いまだその力を 行使しうる。
たとえば、神代で魔術を培ってきたサーヴァントならば──！「神代の魔術なら、直接神霊の権能にアクセスすることになる。神霊が根源と強く結びついている以上、そうな れば根源に届かなくてもええ、か」「だが、知っての通り、古い神秘は現代では摩耗する。私たちはとっくに時代に置いていかれた敗残者だからね 。残された遺産は、いくら貴重なものだろうが、放置すれば腐っていくだけだ」
そうだ。
現代の魔術は、神代とはまったく異なる。
神代の魔術は多くの理由から、現代に適応できなくなったためだ。それこそ、魔術師が受け入れなければなら ない、揺るぎなきルールのはずだった。
「……ヒヒッ、いやはや、ずいぶん聞き覚えのある理屈だな」
小さく、自分だけに聞こえる声が、耳元でする。thoughts?「時計塔の西洋魔術だと、あんな術式機能しない。ああ、だから日本の固有の術式なのね。日本の魔術は順番が 違うもの。規模は著しく減衰していても、次元としては神代と同一。わたしたちにとってのイカサマが、この国 における当たり前。きっと、逆もそうなんだろうけど」
凛の言葉に、エルゴはⅡ世の言葉を思い出した。
いわく、時計塔を起点とした西洋魔術は、世界への詐術なのだという。
流派こそさまざまだが、基本的には魔力で魔術式を刻むことにより、一時的に世界の形を歪めたものが魔術ら しい。世界を歪める深度はおおよそ呪文によって固定され、十小節以上──と呼ばれる簡易儀式となれば、世界の秩序にも干渉しうる。ゆえに、世界の内側にもうひとつの世界をつくりだ す固有結界と呼ばれる術式は、魔術の極みと呼ばれるのだとか。テンカウント瞬間契約
しかし。
おそらく、夜劫の魔術は違うのだ。
『神代の魔術や、神の権能は、ただそのようにあるものだ』
『現代の魔術のような手順を必要としない。君の幻手は、神の権能に近いだろう』
Last edited by You; September 17th, 2021 at 04:53 AM.
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
Yea it's pretty solid that the Divine words borrow a fraction of a gods authority, per a "contract". And even though the gods are no longer around like they used to be, the contract allows them to still enact their authority. And since the gods are connected to the root. that explains why Nasu said a long time ago that AoG mages just didn't need to reach it since they were already so close, it makes sense now that he means that they were close to their god who was literally connected to it. or at least that's what I think it means.
I can't understand most of the other stuff since google translate is pretty limited, but the one of faker in the underground thing sounds interesting.
We see medea lily in fgo cast spells by saying cute things like about sweets and stuff, not sure if that's relevant. though that can maybe just be boiled down to a joke? I dunno.
Also here is the ruby text from jp, incase the translation given in the fandom wiki is incorrect, and anyone here knowledgeable would want to translate it.
"『神言魔術式"
Google translate only gives "Magic words of god" it doesn't bring up the formula part so idk if that was just some mistake someone made. But I know google translate isn't very solid itself.
Ya, it's basically as I explained.
Magecraft from Age of Gods taps into a different Foundation than modern Western magecraft. More specifically, you are tapping into a specific God's Authority. Ultimately the principle is the same, the caster has to tap into an established order in the World to achieve nature interference.
The Case File stuff you posted actually confirmed the blurring between Foundation and Authority. It is saying native Japanese magecraft is distinct from Western magecraft, and is closer to the magecraft of the Age of Gods.
Likely suggesting that Japanese magecraft is using Authority as its Foundation, rather than using the Western Foundation.
The idea is kind of neat, because Shinto religion, or "神道", literally means "Way of the Gods".
- - - Updated - - -
If you read runes, it says:
神言 = divine words
魔術式 = magic formula, as in the specific term
Google translate doesn't speak Nasu, so don't use it.
Gotcha thanks.
Google translation doesn't speak any language, really. You use it as bilingual dictionary for specific words, not full sentences.
Yes, the accuracy of Google Translate is inversely proportional to the length of text you put in.
As for this part, just to make sure I'm understanding. So you're saying basically that the authority AoG mages use from their gods are basically the "Foundation" and they use the Divine words as the "magic formula"? (or the activator of the magic formula) Did I get it right, something like that.
Foundation is really a modern magecraft concept. It's basically "what rules do you play by as a magus".
"Magic Formula" is the specific clause from your rulebook.
If you play by Age of Gods magecraft, your Divine Words invoke your God/God's specific power. I guess you can say the Divine Words are the formula.
If you play by modern magecraft, your spell actually has no power. Your spell hypnotizes yourself so you can access the modern Magic Formula that are carved into your school's Foundation.
So ya, Western Foundation is not the only Foundation. You can use exotic powers as your Foundation.
nice, makes sense. Thanks for the help.
And while we're here. as for the skill rank Highspeed Divine words(Rapid words of divine)B-A that we've seen so far. is the difference in rank just to say the Speed at which the person uses the divine language. Because I'm pretty sure Divine words are like an actual language the mages had to learn to use. And during circes play in Salem she quotes medea to have "One of a kind" spell weaving. So Is it safe to presume the ranks in HSDW are to reflect how fast someone can weave together spells with said words. or do you think its reflecting something else?
This will be my final question.
I guess you can say speed, or you can say power.
In spellcasting, speed is power.
I think the ranks of High Speed Divine Words reflect how powerful of a spell you can cast with 1 action or 1 word.
I guess if you are EX rank, then you can drop a moon on someone just by pointing at him, or something.
Being a master of divine tongue-twister is being the best mage.
Alrighty that's all outta me for now. Thanks, cya.
But then we get Circe who is explicitly better at magic/has better talent at it, and also the whole actually being a Witch vs a Witch larper who doesn't know how to Witch like Medea being B rank so who knows how it makes sense. Does it make sense?
It doesn't tbh.
Casting faster does not necessarily mean your spells are always better though.
Like a faster rapper is not necessarily a better rapper.
Now we just need to know what magecraft's equivalent to mumble rapping is.
Flat
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
I mean does HSDW B cast slower than HSDW A tho?
All you need is a word after all.
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