Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[pinetree]

This sounds exactly like the MO of the Counter Force lol.

Does it? How so?

[Bookworm Luke]

Does it? How so?

Playing the long con and guiding the characters/pieces into place to eliminate a threat to humanity.
It's kind of funny that KnK was brought up, because it's all about how the Counter Force was the guiding hand behind the events.

I don't know for sure, but I won't go surprise-pikachu-face if Nasu said later God is actually the Counter Force here.

[pinetree]

I always interpreted the CF (outside of sending guardians) as something much more abstract and indirect than actually pretending to be God to order Solomon to do a specific thing, or pretending to cry so Jeanne will sympathize and go fight for you.

[Bookworm Luke]

The subtlety really depends. In Mahoyo the Counter Force/Man in Red tells Aoko to stop when she was unleashing the Fifth lol.

[Zork Knight]

I'd like to know what part of the human subconscious decided to fuck around with gravity in the early 20th century after everything had worked so well for over 200 years

And also why Pi should be transcendental.

[TwilightsCall]

I don't know where this idea came from, but in my head I have this idea that the God believed in by the Catholic Church in the Nasuverse is effectively the Root. And the primary difference between magi and the Church (who both believe in and pursue the Root) is that magi believe it's a "place," or at the least an impersonal entity, whereas the Church believes it is a conscious, personal being (hence God).

Is there any backing to that idea, or am I just talking shit?

[Lolly Battory]

In Mahoyo Aoko implies that God is something/someone beyond the Root. Although this is speculation on her part. I get the impression that God is Alaya projected into the Root by worship. Emcompasing it within the human domain so to speak.

[Bookworm Luke]

I don't know where this idea came from, but in my head I have this idea that the God believed in by the Catholic Church in the Nasuverse is effectively the Root. And the primary difference between magi and the Church (who both believe in and pursue the Root) is that magi believe it's a "place," or at the least an impersonal entity, whereas the Church believes it is a conscious, personal being (hence God).

Is there any backing to that idea, or am I just talking shit?

I think you are mixing this up with Aoko's theory in Mahoyo. Aoko suspects that those who touched the Spiral of Origin become gods and vanish.

We are talking about white hair, white beard, angry chap in the sky. The Church doctrine is that man-in-the-sky is real, mage theories are heresy.
If they actually believed Spiral of Origin and mage stuff, they would not have been so hands off during the Holy Grail War. They were more interested of the Grail than the Heaven's Feel ritual.

[fire_mountain_30]

In Mahoyo Aoko implies that God is something/someone beyond the Root.

excuse me?

[Bookworm Luke]

excuse me?

It's this part in Mahoyo.

Soujuurou: So, what was it that Touko-san wanted to do?
Aoko: Huh, I didn't say? To get revenge on me and to touch the Root. You remember that talk about the Whirl of the Root, don't you?
Soujuurou: ....Was that the source of magecraft?
Aoko: Yes, and also our final objective. The Whirl of the Root is position where all knowledge is recorded, and all things are determined. If you can look, touch, understand it, even the word "impossible" can be remade. It has many names in legends, but it's basically the position where God is.

It's more about godly power, than being man-in-the-sky.

[TwilightsCall]

I'm pretty sure I had this idea in my head well before Mahoyo released, but that's still interesting info.

I think you are mixing this up with Aoko's theory in Mahoyo. Aoko suspects that those who touched the Spiral of Origin become gods and vanish.

We are talking about white hair, white beard, angry chap in the sky. The Church doctrine is that man-in-the-sky is real, mage theories are heresy.
If they actually believed Spiral of Origin and mage stuff, they would not have been so hands off during the Holy Grail War. They were more interested of the Grail than the Heaven's Feel ritual.

I don't think that the two ideas are necessarily incompatible. The Church obviously doesn't admit that they are pursuing the same thing, it was just sort of a logical comparison. The source and destination of all things, where all souls come from and go to after death, where all information regarding every past, present, and future possibility is recorded...that sounds an awful lot like God if you add a conscious will to it.

Naturally, the Church would consider magecraft to be heresy, as its basically trying to get into Heaven without God, which on top of being impossible, would be pretty blasphemous. I imagined the understanding more existed from the magi side of things, where they could say "well we're actually pursuing the same thing, the Church just won't admit it"

[Lolly Battory]

The Church's agenda from a meta perspective looks like it's just trying to erase everything that isn't of the human order. All magecraft is either a remnant of the age of the gods or purposely needs to be hiding from humanity to exist. Like the ghosts and vampires in the Matrix being a hold over from a prior version. Although I don't know how this is adds up with Solomon enabling magecraft and Jesus(?) creating replacement ether I guess the Church believes this is only meant to be for sacraments.

[Bookworm Luke]

I'm pretty sure I had this idea in my head well before Mahoyo released, but that's still interesting info.



I don't think that the two ideas are necessarily incompatible. The Church obviously doesn't admit that they are pursuing the same thing, it was just sort of a logical comparison. The source and destination of all things, where all souls come from and go to after death, where all information regarding every past, present, and future possibility is recorded...that sounds an awful lot like God if you add a conscious will to it.

Naturally, the Church would consider magecraft to be heresy, as its basically trying to get into Heaven without God, which on top of being impossible, would be pretty blasphemous. I imagined the understanding more existed from the magi side of things, where they could say "well we're actually pursuing the same thing, the Church just won't admit it"

You are looking at this from a bird's-eye-view though.

In-universe, nobody knows exactly what's true, barring a few people who came very close to Magic (Aoko, Touko, Tohsakas etc).
Even those in the know are not very sure, as Aoko was talking about in the scene.

Spiral of Origin is basically an IRL McGuffin in Nasuverse. I am not sure the Church buys this McGuffin at all (there may be a few Executors in the know though).

[Byegod]

I'd like to know what part of the human subconscious decided to fuck around with gravity in the early 20th century after everything had worked so well for over 200 years

And also why Pi should be transcendental.

And now you understand the issue with science and the idea of subconcious retconning the laws of physics, how do you prove something in the first place if everyone thinks otherewise?

[Menwearpink]

The Abrahamic God is part of Type-Moon as the power source for pretty all of the Holy Church's tricks, and as a voice in Solomon's and Jeanne's heads telling them what to do (through the former's entire life and only a few times during crucial points of the war to the latter). And this is only the confirmed and acknowledged part. We should reasonably assume God was also present as a voice in David's and Moises' head to, for example.

But of course, I don't believe His presence will extend anywhere beyond that because Nasu knows better than starting this kind of controversy.

For the first part isn’t that just being a foundation and wide spread religion. It’s no different from any other magecraft in the end.

as far as the revelation skill goes, I don’t think it’s actually a channel to a god but instead a matter of a skill representing that you were someone that heard god voices in life. If it is a channel then we have to talk about Amakusa who wasn’t really a person with a hotline to YHWH. His NPs give him EOTM, not Revation either.

[Lolly Battory]

The world's rule changed to benefit humans which resulted in the laws of physics. They benefit humans because as long as humans give it their all they are all discoverable and their understanding(getting rid of all mystery) will eventually allow the creation of stuff on the level of the Moon Cell and True Magic without any outside help. The same could be achieved before but not by humans on their own. There has been no indication that humanity's subconsciouss has been influencing the rules and that these don't have always been the same since the age of men. This is why Nasu mentions that the seamingly dead world of Tsuki no Sango is one where "magecraft still exists" this is synonymous with stagnation.

[You]

I don't know where this idea came from, but in my head I have this idea that the God believed in by the Catholic Church in the Nasuverse is effectively the Root. And the primary difference between magi and the Church (who both believe in and pursue the Root) is that magi believe it's a "place," or at the least an impersonal entity, whereas the Church believes it is a conscious, personal being (hence God).

Is there any backing to that idea, or am I just talking shit?

I'm pretty sure I had this idea in my head well before Mahoyo released, but that's still interesting info.

I don't think that the two ideas are necessarily incompatible. The Church obviously doesn't admit that they are pursuing the same thing, it was just sort of a logical comparison. The source and destination of all things, where all souls come from and go to after death, where all information regarding every past, present, and future possibility is recorded...that sounds an awful lot like God if you add a conscious will to it.

Naturally, the Church would consider magecraft to be heresy, as its basically trying to get into Heaven without God, which on top of being impossible, would be pretty blasphemous. I imagined the understanding more existed from the magi side of things, where they could say "well we're actually pursuing the same thing, the Church just won't admit it"

The Holy Church (the fictional organization) isn't trying to make it to heaven. They're just trying to make the earth like what the Bible says it is like.

The Holy Church is the underground fighting force of a certain “ubiquitous” religion. Kirei and Risei are members. The organization strives to eliminate heresy—that which runs counter to the words of God.

Their faith is rooted in applying the doctrine; there's no time for the organization to muse about the theological idea they believe they are serving.
Now some nice Executor who thinks Magi are just misguided fools who can't recognize that the Root they're searching for is really just God and y'all need Jesus in your life to shepherd you to those pearly gates, can I get an amen, is definitely an idea for a character.

[Tenshi]

For further context on the demon stuff:

Oh yeah, it was precisely this material that I ended up being unable to fit in with the explanations of HA, although from what I realized it was my own fail after all.

There are a couple of ways to interpret the demon conundrum.

1) "True" demons exist independently of mankind's imagining of them and can be considered as eldritch 'beings' or forces. Demons of the sixth imaginary substance - that is, the ones that possess people and the Church considers to be "real", attain a form through the wishes and desires of the possessed humans, and may be able to ascend to the level of a "true" demon if fully incarnate ie. impossible to exorcise, warping the world around them. A human's self-transformation into a demon cannot produce a "true" demon. This resolves the passage in Hollow that describes incarnated demons as ""true" while also allowing for Extra's definition of "true", but doesn't answer the question of how the sixth substance operates in non-demon related contexts.

2) "True" demons exist independently of mankind's imagining of them and can be considered as eldritch 'beings' or forces; crucially, they may also possess humans and "incarnate" - it is safe to assume they do not depend on the sixth imaginary substance to achieve this. Demons of the sixth imaginary substance usurp the human idea of a "demon" and take root in them under that name and form; the possession of a shapeless force that is given form through imagination, wishes, and desires (one comparison is Merem's so-called demons, which are wishes given form through the lens of human imagination, yet must remain nameless to remain subservient). In this model, the "true" demons provide the template of the demon in the minds of humans and may possess them, while the demons born of the sixth imaginary substance are fakes that take up the guise of demons to assume their form. This doesn't answer the question of the sixth substance in the context of mystic eyes, but a more open definition where a dependence on the ideas imagined/invented by humans exists could help.

So in this case, as each interpretation still has some flaws in explaining the parts on some sides. Is it wrong for me to assume that there's really no concrete explanation for this? Or it's just that there is a lack of connection between things from now?

[Leftovers]

The minutiae don't really matter, especially since true demons have never actually appeared. For all intents and purposes, "true" indicates a self-contained aberration, "real" indicates legitimate cases of demonic possession, "fake" indicates self-transformation and possession mimics, and "sixth imaginary substance" might indicate the formless that acquires shape through humans.

[Tenshi]

I see! Got it now, thank you!