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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #150421
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Solomon closed his book (of life/journey). Doesn't mean he's destroyed or anything, just that he's not summonable anymore (until Nasu says so).

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arete View Post
    It mentions in Solomon's mats that the only one to gain enlightenment was the 'Messiah'. Wouldn't the 'messiah' be Jesus? And wasn't it Buddha who gained enlightenment? Did he get something else then? It seems more like it's talking about Jesus since he's connected to Solomon.
    When you translate 救世主 without context, yeah, Messiah is generally the first go-to word people use, but in this case, Fate/EXTRA brings context that 救世主 is the Saver Class. "A Saver was the only one in humanity to reach enlightenment" is unquestionably about Buddha.

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    BORN TO REJOICE Walnut Sparks's Avatar
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    ... wait, does that mean that Siddartha is the only human who has reached enlightenment so far?
    Kill Em All 2004
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    吸血鬼 Vampire Arete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    When you translate 救世主 without context, yeah, Messiah is generally the first go-to word people use, but in this case, Fate/EXTRA brings context that 救世主 is the Saver Class. "A Saver was the only one in humanity to reach enlightenment" is unquestionably about Buddha.
    Ah that makes sense. Also clarifies something I was wondering about the Saver class. Cheers for that. Does raise the question though of what happened to Jesus in that world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walnut Sparks View Post
    ... wait, does that mean that Siddartha is the only human who has reached enlightenment so far?
    I'm curious about this as well. What does it mean for ones like Sanzang? I know she is the reincarnation of a cicada, so maybe that disqualifies her? I know that Kiara had the potential to be a Saver. I'm guessing that might be in another world were everything goes right, or that she is just able to reach enlightenment through pure desire or something.

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    屍食鬼 Ghoul
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    I just saw that in Emiya's FGO profile it's mentioned that the tools he projects are only around for a few minutes.
    Magecraft : C (conditionally A+)
    A magecraft that reproduces tools for a few minutes by means of Projection.
    The paired swords which Archer habitually uses, Kanshou & Bakuya, are also things produced by projection magecraft.
    Only when the target of projection falls under the category of "sword", the Rank rapidly jumps up.
    Due to this special trait of "can prepare counterfeits many times over", EMIYA destroys the projected Noble Phantasms. By having them explode, the destructive power is momentarily raised.
    https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/EMIYA

    But it was established in FSN that the stuff Shirou projects specifically isn't temporary.
    "……Fine. I guess if I'm going to correct you, we'll have to start with the fundamentals. But let's go back to what we were talking about earlier. Is it true that the things you projected are still in your shed?"
    "Yeah. Things don't normally go away unless you break them, right?"
    https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20304/

    Does anyone know what is up with that? Is there a special reason behind it, or is that just a retcon I missed?

  6. #150426
    Hm, so I recently gone through the Rider vs Saber fight on the roof and I was sorta comparing the choice to either run to Saber right away vs staying put for a bit. In the staying put choice Shirou takes his time in deciding what to do before finally making a break for the roof, by which time the battle is already over, and in contrast the Saber following choice, Shirou runs to the elevator right away, in time to see what actually happens. So far that's all good.

    My question is then the result. In both scenarios Saber ends up exhausted of mana and Rin presents Shirou with the dilemma of whether or not to feed her humans to keep her sustained, and Shirou wanders around in the morning due to that. At which he gets captured by Illya. In the "wait and stand by" branch he (assumingly) gets dolled right away, but in the "Follow Saber" branch, Illya actually offers a decision on whether or not to become her familiar. Maybe I'm bad with subtleties, but I don't see the major reason this change happened in-universe. The result of the Rooftop fight was still Saber being drained of mana, Rin giving her suggestions, and Shirou wondering about it alone in the park. Does anyone have a suggestion/answer to why it diverged like this?

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    Because Illya's watching and it surprises her that Shirou does something that doesn't fit her projected image that she has of him/Kiritsugu.

    So she's not as hard on him and such.

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    吸血鬼 Vampire Arete's Avatar
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    In connection to my previous question, is the 'messiah' word used for Saver (救世主) different than for the one in the Nega messiah skill (ネガ・メサイヤ)? Obviously the characters aren't the same but since they're done using different alphabets I'm not sure if that means that they really are different. Some clarification on this point would be nice.

    Also does anyone know what the magatama-like jewels and symbols that Prince of Lanling has on him are called? I know the magatama is a more Japanese thing so I'm assuming this is something different but possibly related.
    Last edited by Arete; June 13th, 2021 at 10:41 PM.

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Comun's Avatar
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    The Saver Class uses the Japanese word kyuuseishu and Nega-Messiah uses the English word messiah. Can't explain the difference in nuance until we get to see Beast VI in action, but Kiara's Nega-Saver indicated the two words are separate things.

    The magatamas are magatamas. Here's the artist's justification.

  10. #150430
    So I reached the part where Kirei explains a bit about the origins of the Holy Grail and the war. He talks about the Einzberns specializing in 'the golden rule of the line'. So my question is, what is 'the golden rule of the line'? I poked around a bit on google and such since this seems pretty specific but nothing pops up.

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony246 View Post
    So I reached the part where Kirei explains a bit about the origins of the Holy Grail and the war. He talks about the Einzberns specializing in 'the golden rule of the line'. So my question is, what is 'the golden rule of the line'? I poked around a bit on google and such since this seems pretty specific but nothing pops up.
    It's a mistake in TL when it should be "gold of the Rhine". Kirei's talking about the Rheingold, Siegfried's cursed treasure that the Einzberns got and used in making the HG.

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    muh vampires Ratman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aAlouda View Post
    I just saw that in Emiya's FGO profile it's mentioned that the tools he projects are only around for a few minutes.

    https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/EMIYA

    But it was established in FSN that the stuff Shirou projects specifically isn't temporary.

    https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20304/

    Does anyone know what is up with that? Is there a special reason behind it, or is that just a retcon I missed?
    False NPs get rejected by the World as fakes.

    Shirou has never tried projecting NPs and the stuff he did project were just empty shells. Later in Heaven's Feel he projects a very special thing and it stays around permanently because it is not a NP.

    Archer mostly projects NPs and disposes of them quickly, his bow does not go away either.

  13. #150433
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Comun's Avatar
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    Making special stuff and convincing the world it’s real is probably First Magic.

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    False NPs get rejected by the World as fakes.

    Shirou has never tried projecting NPs and the stuff he did project were just empty shells. Later in Heaven's Feel he projects a very special thing and it stays around permanently because it is not a NP.

    Archer mostly projects NPs and disposes of them quickly, his bow does not go away either.
    I don't think Shirou's Projections/Tracings of NPs work like that. It's not normal Projection which naturally evaporates but application of UBW, so where does the above come from?

  15. #150435
    屍食鬼 Ghoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    False NPs get rejected by the World as fakes.
    I am not saying this is wrong, but do you know where this is from, I dont recall any such thing being stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    Shirou has never tried projecting NPs and the stuff he did project were just empty shells. Later in Heaven's Feel he projects a very special thing and it stays around permanently because it is not a NP.
    Yeah, but the fact that stuff he normally projects, stays around even if their reproduction was lacking, but magical swords he has an affinity for wouldn't, seems weird.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    Archer mostly projects NPs and disposes of them quickly, his bow does not go away either.
    I thought he just returns the stuff he projects and doesen't break to his reality marble, since he mentiosn that it stores the weapons he creates.

    Also, I looked through FSN again a bit, watching out for scenes of projections disapearing and saw this scene where Shirou's first projection of Archer's swords in UBW disapear during the fight against Caster and Kuzuki.
    We spring apart.
    The twin swords that parried thirty attacks break as if saying they cannot take any more.
    It's not because they lost against Kuzuki's fists.
    The swords disappeared because I couldn't maintain their image.
    https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20174/

    Does anyone know what maintain their image means in this context? I thought the mental effort was only part of creating them, not something continuesly done afterwards, like I doubt he always focuses on maintianing the stuff in his shed

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    The unbreakable sword i imaged has a crack, so its not unbreakable, so it doesnt match the image, so i didnt project it right, so it vanishes.

    Another way to put it is that Shirou has to guess how much durability damage the sword took every 30 seconds and if he guesses wrong it vanishes instantly

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    吸血鬼 Vampire Arete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    The Saver Class uses the Japanese word kyuuseishu and Nega-Messiah uses the English word messiah. Can't explain the difference in nuance until we get to see Beast VI in action, but Kiara's Nega-Saver indicated the two words are separate things.

    The magatamas are magatamas. Here's the artist's justification.
    Thanks! I probably should've checked Lanling's mats before, but this is actually quite good as it indicates what they want associated with the magatama.

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