What. The actual. Fuck. Like, I get it, Mash is the heroine/default canon romance option and as such writers will always sing her praises, but still, what the hell. Everything about this situation is just so.... weird.
What. The actual. Fuck. Like, I get it, Mash is the heroine/default canon romance option and as such writers will always sing her praises, but still, what the hell. Everything about this situation is just so.... weird.
Last edited by Gelious; May 5th, 2025 at 02:45 PM.
Slowly hitting me that this is the first time Kirei and Amakusa have ever shared screentime (at least that I can think of)
Higashide being the GOAT as always.Originally Posted by VTKajin
BTW, I feel dumb that it took me so much time to realize that Lilith has these leaf-shaped nipple stickers because Adam and Eve are commonly depicted with leaves covering their bits.
It makes sense, though. Remember what Lilith said: Mashu is a person whose whole, and sole, thing is living up to the ideal of perfection and purity that was pushed on her by others, and refusing to compromise on that ideal no matter what, unlike any normal human being. And what is it that we see repeatedly happen especially after that talk? Guda complimenting Mashu at basically every opportunity, even Kadoc doing the same, and really highlighting just how much of that ideal Mashu embodies to them. All of this glazing the writer is doing is not actually to prop up Mashu as some great character, but the opposite. It's all there to show how shit she is as as human being.
That does make sense, the part that shocked me is that selling your party members is somehow considered a viable and acceptable solution. Did not expect that from our protagonists of all people.
Last edited by Gelious; May 5th, 2025 at 04:54 PM.
ohhhh. I didn't connect that either.
Not like I ever expected it at this point, but given that Caesar appears here it's a shame there was no new version of him maybe as a 4 Star, not opposed to 5 Star either but that'd be even more of a pipe dream, Caesar in his "proper" class.
There's a difference between not understanding him and simply not liking him. I can assure you that I am within the latter category- I recognize his logic, but simply find it utterly repulsive.
And yes, I read his From Lostbelt chapter too.
Last edited by InsertNameHere; May 5th, 2025 at 07:55 PM.
Since I've done a review of every Ordeal Call except the first one, I may as well continue to uphold the tradition. I was really busy around the time that it came out, so I feel behind a bit on reading it, but on account of having all of Sunday unoccupied, I was able to blast through most of it on that day. Unlike OC3, which I stalled for several weeks, this chapter was much more of a breezy read, in that sense. To put it bluntly, I managed to mostly find it enjoyable.
Anyone who has completed the chapter knows that when it ends, the camera pans over to Antarctica, and tells you the way forward is open to you. So this does definitely mark the end of the Ordeal Call saga. And I think in most ways, this feels like the only OC that was actually somewhat necessary. That said, I do think even that has to come with a plethora of caveats. Ordeal Call has had some terrific lows with both OC1 and OC3, and my feelings on OC2 gets more and more subdued the more time passes. In general, my first impression of OC2 was good, but as it went on, and it became clear that Cagliostro would play a major role, I sort of found it difficult to excuse it. OC4 has similar problems, and neither it, nor OC2, never managed to hit the highs that FGO ever experienced with LB5 (specifically the ending), LB6, and LB7. As such, I do not say farewell with a particularly heavy heart to this part of FGO. Thank God it's over, honestly.
Anyhow, OC4 itself does take some steps to actually make itself relevant to the overarching plot. Mash and Kadoc are in major focus, while the MC is mostly ignored. Since OC2 put most of the focus on the MC, I think this is a good decision. Also, unlike the MC, Mash and Kadoc have more of an actually established character conflict. The theme of the chapter has to obviously to with the keyword 罪と罰 (crime/sin and punishment), which was introduced as soon as the OCs became known to us. There are some classically Nasu thoughts about sin in this chapter, which can be off-putting to some, just as they were so long ago in KnK and Tsukihime when he first wrote about them. In that sense, you're in familiar waters when it comes to conclusion of the chapter: "To sin is to be human, and that's okay", "Accept your sin, make no excuses for it, and you will have atoned".
There's nothing wrong (to me, at least) about such a conclusion, and I found myself somewhat engaged with the developments of the story. There were some outbursts of catharsis as to the theme, most notably with Kadoc's death scene and Mash admitting to her hatred. Though even as Mash got a very major and needed dose of character development, I felt like Lilith was the one who really carried that particular story-line. It is tempting to compare Lilith to Taigong Wang from Tunguska, in the sense that they are both characters that come in and "complete" the character arc of another long-established one. There is some degree of dissonance here, just as there was with Tunguska, but in general, the execution is much more solid, which makes the suddenness of such an introduction more palpable. I do think it does display a level of bad planning on the part of the writers though. It is true that Mash was lacking a real character arc in Part 2, but why wasn't that more planned out to begin with? It was only with LB7 (technically Type Lumina was before it, but lmao) that we started to hear about how Mash becoming a Heroic Spirit. Rushing through her character arc here does feel rather inelegant, when viewed as a whole.
Like usual, I will do a little cast rundown, and luckily this time it won't be as extensive because the main cast is rather limited, even if there are a lot of cameos.
Mash: There are some parts of her personality and character that are discussed here which are genuinely a clever way to subvert how to think about her. Her purity can be very off-putting, and I think Lilith sort of exists to give voice to that perspective. It also connects back to some things we learned about Mash earlier in FGO that was never fully expanded on. Mostly her backstory. That said, I do think part of her development here is a retread. It's not a surprise that Mash's conclusion from Babylonia 0 is almost entirely copied into here (including the visuals, funnily enough), because it contains much of the same conclusions, but more expanded. I'm not sure what to think about Mash, still. Her personality is sort of grating to me, but I do think the ideas about her character are fascinating, but since they are so rarely brought to the forefront, it is hard to me to think of that as being what defines her. Anyway, good job, I suppose.
Kadoc: It is very important that the story actually took the time to give serious consideration to Kadoc's decision to massacre Chaldea. While the Main Character and Mash are Jesus-like in their forgiving nature, as is firmly established by LB7, that is an anomaly, and given the rather serious nature of his crimes, it is appropriate that they be given weight and consideration. Kadoc goes back and forth about how to think about it, but ultimately accepts that his sin cannot be paid other than by his life. But he does not atone by dying, but by using his death to help the still living. Punishment is not atonement, and neither of them can ever make up for the sin itself.
Lilith: A very entertaining character. Much like how Noel gave Ciel a proper way to build on her character's themes, so does Lilith to Mash. And while Lilith isn't quite as masterful as Noel is, she does do a lot to bring some well-needed dynamics to Mash's character conflict. This is a good idea in general when you're telling a story. Lilith herself seems to have been made to be as different from Mash as possible. Mash is formal, subdued and modest. Lilith is casual, loud and risque. And there are some interesting angles to Lilith's hatred of Mash that aren't as immediately apparent as it would first seem. Lilith loves humans, especially the dogged human nature of trying to live life to the fullest, so her affection for the Main Character and, to some extent, Kadoc, is real. The theme of the chapter dictates that to sin and make mistakes is human, and in some sense, even good. Mash lacks these qualities, and has to learn to take to them through Lilith.
Metatron-Jeanne: The main villain, and while her motivations are pretty easy to thematically incorporate into the rest of the chapter, I found it difficult to accept her as a particularly compelling character. She is a bit of a retread of Goetia, who I don't particularly like in the first place. That said, obviously you can see how her attempt at perfecting herself by throwing away her Sloth is what marks her downfall. It is only with that "imperfection" back and incorporated into her, that she can fairly judge the matter of Chaldea's sins.
Sloth-a-tron: I suppose I have to split these up, because they are separate characters for most of the chapter. Sloth fully embraces her sin, and the story treats this mostly as a good thing. To indulge in Sloth brings its own punishments, but even so, there is a reason for Sloth to exist, and it is an important facet of human nature that you cannot just throw away. As far as "charm" goes, I think this character was also the one I found the most fun, together with Lilith.
Dante: For someone who made the Singularity and defined its concept, he wasn't particularly relevant. I think his character conclusion is almost an afterthought at the end of the story. That said, he is really funny. In fact, easily the funniest character in the story. His loser ways are the most consistent source of humor that actually hit for me. And there is a lot of humor in this chapter which does not hit for me, mind you.
Moriarty: While there is something to be said about his partnership with Dante, I didn't find him all that meaningful as a stand-alone character. He functions mostly as the grease that keeps the plot going smoothly, coming up with ploys and schemes on how to solve the party's collective predicament. His relevance as a character is so minor that he even disappears off-screen.
Ashoka: There is something very bizarre about this character. A lot of things early in the story seem to hint that he was to serve the same role to Kadoc that Lilith does to Mash. Hence why he is present at Kadoc's death, and that he spends his last conversation with Metatron talking about Kadoc. But despite that, Ashoka has pretty minimal screen-time, and never goes into depth with Kadoc about his sin. And considering the main narrative around Ashoka is that of a man who embraced pacifism after committing a harrowing massacre, he would've made a great companion to Kadco in this chapter. Very strange.
Amakusa: Like Moriarty, mostly spends his time being plot-glue. Not much more to say. If you wanted proper Amakusa content, you won't find it here.
Kotomine: Kotomine is as entertaining as always, but there isn't much about him that gets developed here. I did find it interesting that Mash points out that he may have had a much more compassionate motivation for trying to absolve Kadoc, rather than his own explicitly stated one of trying to corner Chaldea. This contradiction of Kotomine's character is a classic one that is much present in F/SN.
Galahad: What the heck are you doing here? Galahad is certainly interesting, but his appearance is so brief it is difficult to say anything about him. He has a very bizarre personality that values fairness and neutrality above all else. Even so, he shows a lot of care for Mash. I feel like he was meant to have a bigger role originally in FGO, but I suppose this might be all we get.
There are a bunch of other characters who make an appearance this chapter, but none of them are relevant enough to talk about in any expanded fashion.
My main issue with the chapter is that despite its commitments to its theme, it does feel a bit unfocused. The middle part of the chapter is incredibly dull, and consists of an endless onslaught of cameos and tired jokes while the main party go through hell. I was finding it very difficult to get through this section at points. The low point is probably Canto 18, which is basically just a customary attempt at getting through the 8th circle without any twists or interesting developments whatsoever. Now, this might seem like a minor issue, but the fact is that this chapter is very, very long. Just as long as LB7. Despite this, it doesn't ever feel like it has as much going on as LB7. And it is this middle stretch that really causes this issue to be so pronounced. Was there a need to first escort two NPCs who don't matter and THEN make another trip through the entirety of hell?
Speaking of these NPCs, they are there much like how every chapter in FGO seems to now be contractually obliged to have some natives for Chaldea to interact with. This is nominally to developed the setting of the Singularity as to further the themes of the chapter, but in this case, it really is just so weak and boring that I cannot fathom why they even bothered. In general, the setting feels oddly underdeveloped. There is obviously talk about how the sinner and penitents come to terms with their own sins and what-not, but it never really comes to a head or has any sort of catharsis like the Deinos do in LB7, for example. After the circle of gluttony, it is basically forgotten. But the settings of the Lostbelts/Singularities being weakly developed isn't new, and is basically never done well outside of Nasu's own chapters. It is just a shame the other writer still try and fail to this day.
On the whole, I am pretty lukewarm, but mostly positive, about the chapter. Unlike OC1 and OC3 which are some of the worst stuff FGO has to offer, OC4 is much more enjoyable, but it isn't as spectacular as you'd wish the climax to a whole "story arc" to be.
Last edited by Petrikow; May 5th, 2025 at 08:39 PM.
Do you think we could see more of Galahad in the finale or does his goodbye here seem pretty final?Galahad: What the heck are you doing here? Galahad is certainly interesting, but his appearance is so brief it is difficult to say anything about him. He has a very bizarre personality that values fairness and neutrality above all else. Even so, he shows a lot of care for Mash. I feel like he was meant to have a bigger role originally in FGO, but I suppose this might be all we get.
NOO!! You've just delayed it for another decade!
You are not immune to propoganda, probably.
I don't see how he will be relevant after this chapter.
... Huh, that makes a lot of sense.
You are not immune to propoganda, probably.
Yeah Mash's character arc does seem pretty finished which is what he's mainly for, I was just thinking in terms of getting more elaboration on his own character which it sounded like you felt was kind of underwhelming because of his short screentime. Presuming he's the anniversary Servant there'll at least be a profile for him but that's not comparable to actually seeing him as a character more.
The ultimate Potential Man...
He is still an Apostle, and I suspect he'll be one of the last lines of defense CHALDEAS has before we actually reach it. After all, if he falls it won't be able to call any new Apostles to its aid.
Personally, I think it might have been more interesting if Metatron-Jeanne had been replaced with the Gnostic Demiurge with Sloth-Metatron being the true Metatron. Not only would it be appropriate due to the idea of the Demiurge as a "false God", it would still fit with the rest of the chapter in that it is typically depicted as being intolerant with the imperfections of the world (the sins, if you will) while remaining willfully ignorant of the fact that those imperfections exist only because of its own imperfect nature...and that the sins it condemns are in fact the very sins it is guilty of itself.
Though I guess it would also lead to the "case" against Chaldea being thrown out completely rather than it ending with the Rulers frozen, I consider that to be a positive.The struggle for survival makes impartiality impossible, but the fact that they could answer the summons at all despite that is proof that they are still necessary for Chaldea to succeed.
From lost belt is half canon supplementary material that doesn't really add anything to this discussion so I'm not sure why the fact that you also read it should matter. And if this is you understanding Daybit after reading so much material that's almost amazing.
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? He's never been counted as among the apostles
Last edited by mami-kouga; May 6th, 2025 at 01:40 AM.
The main issue with Galahad is that his presence in the plot has always been firmly tied with Mash's development and now that she's had said development and his role in the narrative has been fulfilled it's hard to see any further justification for him to have a story appearance.
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He could have an event appearance I guess similar to Saberdusa but it's a bit hard to imagine him deciding that now that he no longer has to be our big antagonist he will now make a tower event
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