Zero's Guide to Riichi/Reach Mahjong ~rules, points, and general discussion~

so yeah, fuck this online shit.

Zero-style 3P is godlier.
Also note that we play limit-only mahjong, so that calculations are easy as 5+ is set, 3 or 4, what's the fu? k, it doesn't count for point shifting unless mangan. that is, winds can change and shit and a winner is declared on a normal hand, but no points get exchanged unless it's a limit. severe limiting on compounding means whole new meta.




and on that note, anyone up for an online game?

I've lacked the Internets @ home for a week or so, where I was in the process of changing ISPs.

Anyways. Saki Achiga-hen. It gives me tears. XD

And compounded riichi? That's nuts. D:!!

It's not really nuts at all, when the people you play with tend to go damaten ~80% of the time, and the 20% when it is declared, is about 90% one person, and only while he's dealer. And it's usually only 1-2 fan hands anyways. Not crazy at all, but rather incentive to actually play more boldly in house that tends to stay on the down low.

Ah, I see.

And sadly, that's pretty much what I had generally seen for the Anime Central Tournament. I didn't get to compete; and instead, I became a substitute host. Scoring wise. I'd say: roughly 25% of the hands involved mangan or better.

yeah, see, if my house rules were also standard scoring instead of only limit hands allow point exchange, we'd get about 90% of hands without anything over 2 han. 25% limit hands with common rules and the style of play that I'm immersed in is basically god tier luck. In other words, there was probably a lot more reckless calling or bold discarding that got punished.

I wish I had the resources to maintain play records. But... with some mahjong sets (and mats)... multiple tables... and some paper and a clipboard. All I could track was the scoring; and until the finals, we failed to account for point transactions with riichi sticks. XD

But yea. Ending up as the substitute host -- I did away will all those custom rules that was advertised. On top of running the tournament, we were also doing some teaching tables to those who never played before. Thankfully, more from my mahjong group came in to help. Either way, it was fun hosting. Though, I'd like to play some games m'self.

In other words, there was probably a lot more reckless calling or bold discarding that got punished.

And 3 instances of chombo... ... ...

...the fact that a single chombo payment had to have been made is saying those people aren't even at the minimum threshold of proper play, man. i'm kinda glad that was too far away to go to, since i'd probably just be angry the entire time, judging purely from what you've stated yourself. People not following rules in a game that is defined by it's specific rule sets and a huge amount of limit hands implying both reckless riichi declarations and an overall lack of defensive play, it all just doesn't sit well with me.

I mean it's a completely different story if they're a beginner trying to learn, in which case I expect such things, and in the case of before yaku mastery, riichi declaration is encouraged. But a tourney? Unless it's a total points style tourney instead of an elimination bracket tourney, I can't fathom why a one in four limit hand would be thought to be acceptable play. And even in a total points style tourney, I'd expect more of a honba speed suppression style, since dealer 50% raise with 3-4 wins at 2-4 han each already surpasses multiple limit hands. Without having to build your hand laboriously, you can declare wins and build up points faster than the non-dealers who, if they aren't confident in their ability to build hands quickly and have to rely on riichi need to aim for constant limit hands; or who, if they are confident in their ability to build hands quickly, won't be scoring much, just trying to remove your dealer status. I mean I can understand that if you have a haneman potential hand in front of you, it's hard to ignore, and it'd be bad in a general sense to ignore it, but if you've got a pinfu only hand and you try to force it to a limit, your discards are just gonna scream out "hey look, I'm gonna discard these tiles since I'm being a greedy fuck, make sure to flip your tenpai to wait on them so you can ron me, kthnx".

Well, maybe I'm biased, since we almost never declare riichi outside of dealership since we can't expect anyone to discard into our hands without playing wait tricks, so if we're aiming for a tsumo if we want a large hand anyways, then riichi is just a risk with little reward. Not being able to change your hand feels way too suffocating to me if your hand isn't in shape to deal real damage, which is limit hand only in non-dealer position. And if you've already got a limit hand, the only reason I would declare riichi is if bumps my limit hand to the next level of limit hand, or I'm gambling on the uradora for an overall points comeback. Still, unless I royally fucked up and got myself into a point pit because I discarded into someone's dealer hand or a limit hand, then the latter isn't a scenario that often occurs. And it does happen, since one of us just aims for yakuman about 50% of the time, but he still plays defensively if it doesn't come together by the 6th or 7th go-around, since such big hands are generally easy to spot and avoid. Lots of noten in washouts happen for yakuman-man.

But yeah, angers. I have way too many of them.

If anyone's up for it, I'm in 7776 right now.

cool, i'll hang out there too.

As an event overall. The mahjong play session we had was actually successful in terms of attendance. It was nice to see 7-tables of mahjong (regular play, tournament games, and teaching tables) throughout the 6 hours, where on some occasions, we had the good problem of not finding space

A little bit, I've kinda looked at some of the other Table Top Gaming sessions, like magic, munchin, etc. They've had larger rooms, but more empty space. Others had low attendance or outright cancelled due to lack of players.

As for the tournament. Yes. I did frown at the chombos, especially when two of them came from one player. At the same time, he was breaking down mentally. Oh well. In any case, as far as the sign up, I pretty much allowed anyone interested to sign up and carried on from there. Being an interim host, I had to get things moving - and - there really was no time to "quiz" players on their skill level. Just had to let the play do the talking.

As for the tournament format. Looking at the results. Um... yea. I wouldn't use the tournament bracket format again. I'd just use a straight up cumulative points table and take the top 4 into a Finals Table (and let them duke it out there for the championship). Or even a top 6 - give rank 1 and 2 a bye, and let ranks 4-6 qualify into a finals table. Or something of that nature.

On top of that, my data collection wasn't good either. For the earlier rounds, I failed to account riichi sticks in the point transaction table. (Sigh) At least, I made a point to be very accurate for the finals table.

In any case, I look to improve in the tournament hosting department. As for pre-determining skill levels ... sadly, that's not realistic to do at this time, because this game isn't all that popular. We have three other Chicago area anime conventions, and we'll be having mahjong events at all three. So, we're quite active in this department.

Originally Posted by MZeroX

Well, maybe I'm biased, since we almost never declare riichi outside of dealership since we can't expect anyone to discard into our hands without playing wait tricks, so if we're aiming for a tsumo if we want a large hand anyways, then riichi is just a risk with little reward.

I agree. I've been finding myself being more wary about calling Riichi, especially when I feel lacking in the momentum department. As an alternative, I do wait for those trick waits or even use "Ninja Rons" (my coined term for hidden tenpai).

Likewise, I've had some greedy games m'self, where I'd try to make that extra push to increase hand value, only to die with either a careless discard or letting the hand develop slowly in lieu speedy development. And yep, often times, the latter results in getting zero points due to others claiming a win before I do.

Oh well. Such is the matter of the game.

Where do you guys usually play Mahjong?
I would like to learn from you guys.

We usually play at http://tenhou.net/0/?L7776

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask them here. If you're still in the beginner stages, Tenhou isn't too kind, since it's literally just jump to the game and play (it does have a training mode, but that's just grinding your ability to get to a ready hand; not really helpful for learning, just sharpening).

This thread is stickied so that it won't get lost in the wash. Just post your questions. feel free to abuse screenshots if you're learning using online resources. There's a few of them that I used to when I taught myself how to play posted in the first few posts of the thread, but if the images are bogging you down, just ask here. It isn't like people actually go back and read, anyways.

I just wrote up the basic rule book here:

http://saki.wikia.com/wiki/Japanese_mahjong

If there are errors, go ahead and fix 'em. XD

cool, way to totally put the main purpose of thread/the initial posts of this thread on another site.

Originally Posted by MZeroX

cool, way to totally put the main purpose of thread/the initial posts of this thread on another site.

Oh. When I found it as is -- before I rewrote it -- it was a convoluted mess mixed in with only Saki related stuff. I couldn't stand it.

D:!!!!

So, I fixed it up to sift out the Saki stuff. Now, it serves as a base for the Saki related articles.

But don't feel bad, man. The more places this kind of material is written: the better. Hopefully, more and more people end up learning this game. Compared to Europe, we're so far behind in America.

I don't disdain the idea of more exposure. I disdain taking Saki seriously. It's only purpose imo is gateway for more players. Well, useful purpose anyways. It's actual purpose is obviously ships with a side of porn, but those aren't relevant to these interests.

Anyways, not contributing to the Saki wiki even with a ten foot pole, but yeah, there's a lot of grammar mistakes.

And the rules listed are all Ari-Ari style, which while applicable to the anime, aren't necessarily accepted. Hell, even in the manga and other parts of the anime, the rules don't match what is listed. A disclaimer about how the rules are 100% accepted everywhere ought to be made.

Well, the big ones would be that some people don't play bankruptcy rules, or that kyuushuu chuuhai sometimes cannot be declared if there are 3 or 4 suji in spite of the existence of 9 or more different yaochuuhai. Also should note that kyuushuu chuuhai causes a wind shift regardless of who declares it, while other washouts can preserve dealership.

I generally went to that Wikia because it was a complete and utter mess as I had found it. And, I coulda gone to a regular mahjong Wiki, but the terminology uses standard Chinese, or some convoluted English "translation". Suits there are refered as "bam", "crack", and "dot". I'd refuse to deal with that. Plus, I was able to do things in that Wiki -- things that I could not do in regular Wikipedia. But right. Gonna have to note some of the variability on the rules, and I actually opened up a separate article to just to cover that. Likewise, the more people I can get a collaboration on the general ruleset, the better. I've yet to get a check from anyone at #osamuko.

Regarding kyuushuu kyuuhai, well. We ran into it during our weekly game session with the Chicago group. As we stand on that one, the dealer rotation remains, and honba is counted up. At least, that's how we do it for our live tile sessions. By the way, I pulled a Chankan. That was great. :3

Ari-Ari style? I pretty much wrote up what I had observed via Tenhou and Barticle's book. I don't use Saki as my source of general rules. Most of my game experience against other players (which is only 2-years) is through Tenhou; and these live-tile games are helping. Though, I oughta play in Ron2.jp some more and see how things go in there. Unfortunately, I am not able to read Japanese, else I'd look into what the Japanese Pro League does with regard to the rulebook. If anyone's truly credible with the rules, it's them.

So, next time I ever get the chance to run a tournament. I hope to make some of these variations clear. Speaking of tournaments, we at the Chicago group may have about 3 more events lined up. Hope I get to play in these. Plus, there's one in Michigan, where I wouldn't mind playing too.

As for Saki mahjong. Left to the imagination, the improbable actually becomes "actual". Thinking along those lines, it's weird to really think about the things so ridiculously improbable with this game... like a 6 (or even 7) Yakuman hand, or those crazy "kan" situations. Finally, sadly with the "moe-crazy" trend of anime these days, the series is attracting new players. But of course, it is fool-hardy to even attempt to mimic some of those crazy tricks due to the extremely low probability of such scenarios.

Originally Posted by Kyuu

I generally went to that Wikia because it was a complete and utter mess as I had found it. And, I coulda gone to a regular mahjong Wiki, but the terminology uses standard Chinese, or some convoluted English "translation". Suits there are refered as "bam", "crack", and "dot". I'd refuse to deal with that. Plus, I was able to do things in that Wiki -- things that I could not do in regular Wikipedia. But right. Gonna have to note some of the variability on the rules, and I actually opened up a separate article to just to cover that. Likewise, the more people I can get a collaboration on the general ruleset, the better. I've yet to get a check from anyone at #osamuko.

eh, those are actually what they're called in American Mahjong, or however they spell it. It isn't wrong, even if you don't like it.

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Regarding kyuushuu kyuuhai, well. We ran into it during our weekly game session with the Chicago group. As we stand on that one, the dealer rotation remains, and honba is counted up. At least, that's how we do it for our live tile sessions. By the way, I pulled a Chankan. That was great. :3

Eh, I guess if that's how you do it, that's how you do it. How about 4 winds washout? I know a few that shift winds when that happens, but I also know a few others that preserve dealership.

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Ari-Ari style? I pretty much wrote up what I had observed via Tenhou and Barticle's book. I don't use Saki as my source of general rules. Most of my game experience against other players (which is only 2-years) is through Tenhou; and these live-tile games are helping. Though, I oughta play in Ron2.jp some more and see how things go in there. Unfortunately, I am not able to read Japanese, else I'd look into what the Japanese Pro League does with regard to the rulebook. If anyone's truly credible with the rules, it's them.

Well yeah, Ari-Ari is just "commonly allowed" style of play. Obviously many places will have these rules, since they're commonly accepted. The stricter rules appear when you reach more professional levels. Still, calling them to attention is important in the learning process.

Originally Posted by Kyuu

As for Saki mahjong. Left to the imagination, the improbable actually becomes "actual". Thinking along those lines, it's weird to really think about the things so ridiculously improbable with this game... like a 6 (or even 7) Yakuman hand, or those crazy "kan" situations. Finally, sadly with the "moe-crazy" trend of anime these days, the series is attracting new players. But of course, it is fool-hardy to even attempt to mimic some of those crazy tricks due to the extremely low probability of such scenarios.

ummm, gonna have to disagree wholeheartedly for the improbable becoming actual. Magical powers/abilities like turning your discards invisible because you were ignored throughout childhood, or seeing one turn into the future isn't improbable. That's downright physically impossible. Also, a Septuple yakuman is impossible if the tiles aren't altered. Sextuple is the absolute limit, and that's assuming special types double yakuman exist--daisuushii, tsuuiisou, suuankou tanki, and then either suukantsu or tenhou/chiihou/renhou. Well, if paarenchen is thrown in, then maybe a septuple is possible, but some paarenchen rules make it a mangan limit instead of a yakuman limit. This would be improbable but possible. Changing the quality of your draws because of your mental state, like what happens in Saki, is just flat out impossible.

I also wouldn't call trying to replicate these situations foolhardy, depending on some of the situations. Some of the situations that arise are plausible moves in a gamble. Now attributing them to an ability is stupid, but making these moves and winning off of them are things anyone can do if the tiles fall that way. That's the glory of mahjong--random shit is possible. Still, "ability-users", actual terminology used in Saki, is outright dumb.

In Tenhou.net. Kyuushuu kyuuhai does increase honba without dealer rotation. Before I made my previous post, I had forgotten how Tenhou handles it. A couple of recent games showed that to be the case: honba increase without rotation.

Rethinking, OK. 6 is the most yakuman possible. Apparently, I can think of 2 combinations for it. Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsns3d9CuM (Tenhou, Tsuiso, Daisushi (2), Suu Anko, Parenchan)

The other combination I could come up with: Suu Kansu, Suu Anko, Daisushi (2), Tsuiso, Parenchan.

Too bad, the Suu Anko Tanki didn't count as 2 yakuman, instead of 1. But I'm aware of the variability on that. And this is how I probably came up with 7 Yakuman, instead of just 6.

Of course, for both of these, Parenchan is a variable rule too. Some may have it. Others won't. Though, if Parenchan is a standard Yakuman, I may have to put it back in the regular Wikipedia article. For now, I have it noted as an optional Yakuman.

Originally Posted by MZeroX

ummm, gonna have to disagree wholeheartedly for the improbable becoming actual. Magical powers/abilities like turning your discards invisible because you were ignored throughout childhood, or seeing one turn into the future isn't improbable. That's downright physically impossible.

If you use the imagination, pretty much anything is possible if it can be explained in the rules. Saki's game/match winning of kazoe yakuman of Rinshan Kaihou, Chinitsu, San Anko, San Kansu, Toi Toi, and Akai Dora... it's an explainable and attainable hand. Through explanation, the circumstances of attaining these "impossible" scenarios exist. Therefore, it's possible; it is within the set of legal mahjong hands.

However... that most certainly does not imply some of these hands as "probable".

Like in the case of attaining 6 Yakuman... yea. Looking at the "probabilities", it's outright "impossible" based on how low the probability of it actually happening. It's hard enough to score 1 yakuman and even double yakuman. To try 3 or more... yea... only in my dreams for now. As a result, we write it off as "impossible". It's human nature to do so.