The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[Incarnite Azurnum]

...something I forgot to mention. The spirits are classed under attributes, and this one's attribute is Fire (there's also Steel and Military recorded as attributes for one reason or another),

Okay, this we can work with. Wait, what's that comma doing there?!

though my character will end up gaining a couple other spirits as well.

Define "a couple".

That actually makes sense... actually, I think that the d8 is an accurate summation of their HD in this case, since they do take quite a beating.

d6 as the minimum was obvious due to what seemed to be an implied minimum amount physical training.

Actually... what do you mean by your comment on Skill Points?

Its mostly a balance concern. If the class scales off of Intelligence and would typically not be able to get a lot of 'lfe experience' then it should probably be at 2. Think of your stereotyped Wizard being locked up in the Library/Academy.

...when I'm less likely to screw up the answers, I'll give them, alright? My mind is tired and I need sleep.

A sound plan.

[Kieran]

Okay, we'll start with the assumption that your character is stuck with one spirit. What element is that spirit?
As for the base class, we can probably assume that it is at most 3/4 BAB progression as a not insignificant portion choose to focus on their mystical abilities. Saves are best left as the physicals being poor and Will being good for now. Skill points would probably be +2 or +4 depending on whether the class scales off of Int or not. Hitdie is probably d6 or d8, need more information or physical capabilities.

That actually makes sense... actually, I think that the d8 is an accurate summation of their HD in this case, since they do take quite a beating.
...something I forgot to mention. The spirits are classed under attributes, and this one's attribute is Fire (there's also Steel and Military recorded as attributes for one reason or another),

So using "shaman" as your base class is definitely a good start, since it follows all of those criteria. Swap out "spirit animal" for "spirit weapon," and that's basically what you've got.

though my character will end up gaining a couple other spirits as well.

Define "a couple".

. . . Hang on - "a couple?" And this is in addition to being a Keyblade wielder?

OK, warning: you have now crossed firmly into "ridiculously overpowered" territory. Please step away from the line.

[Xamusel]

A few things I also forgot to ask were:
What were the low and high ends of the various elemental powers used? (Do we see someone throwing around truck sized icicles or do they seem to be limited to glass sized projectiles; what ranges and their rate of fire; area denial abilities, etc.)
Does the power level of the spirit contracted determine the power range the contractor is in (essentially is their starting power level and potential max determined by what they contract with)?
What is the physical prowess level range of the contractors? (Is even the most physically inept of them normal human level or is it effectively anorexic levels; Is the highest end essentially leap over units or stupid high like superman level?)

Alright, finally, I'm able to answer these questions. 1) The ends of the spectrum are different per person involved. For instance, far as I can tell, a person with a fire spirit is able to toss around fire balls like it was nothing. Ranges and rate of fire are something I'm not sure I'm able to answer properly (and I don't know what you mean by area denial abilities). 2) Yes, I'm pretty sure it does, actually. 3) The most physically inept of them is on normal human levels... though I highly doubt the Superman level is the highest they can get physically.

Okay, this we can work with. Wait, what's that comma doing there?!

Define "a couple".

Three more max, one for Ice, one for Wind and one for Earth. My character won't be getting anywhere near Demon Lord Solomon's level of Contracted Spirits.

d6 as the minimum was obvious due to what seemed to be an implied minimum amount physical training.

Yeah, glad you caught onto that... though, it seems more like my character will have more health than a d6 would allow.

Its mostly a balance concern. If the class scales off of Intelligence and would typically not be able to get a lot of 'life experience' then it should probably be at 2. Think of your stereotyped Wizard being locked up in the Library/Academy.

Spirit Elementalists are able to go to school, though much of the info I have suggests that they're more able to gain life experience than not, if anything.

So using "shaman" as your base class is definitely a good start, since it follows all of those criteria. Swap out "spirit animal" for "spirit weapon," and that's basically what you've got.

Huh... makes sense to me.

. . . Hang on - "a couple?" And this is in addition to being a Keyblade wielder?

OK, warning: you have now crossed firmly into "ridiculously overpowered" territory. Please step away from the line.

There's gonna be a template system involved with my character, Kieran, otherwise I'd really be overpowered like that. Whenever my character gains a template, he'll have to spend some time in that form, just to get it properly powerful enough to learn how to use even a slight bit of its power when out of the template. For example, after spending enough time in his Keyblader form, he'll be able to use a Keyblade in the other templates (but he can't change the key chain outside of the Keyblader template).

[Vigilantia]

There's gonna be a template system involved with my character, Kieran, otherwise I'd really be overpowered like that. Whenever my character gains a template, he'll have to spend some time in that form, just to get it properly powerful enough to learn how to use even a slight bit of its power when out of the template. For example, after spending enough time in his Keyblader form, he'll be able to use a Keyblade in the other templates (but he can't change the key chain outside of the Keyblader template).

What, you mean like those Final Fantasy job systems?

[Xamusel]

Actually... yes.

[Kieran]

Decent in theory, difficult to accomplish in d20.

[Xamusel]

I'll figure something out... I hope.

[Incarnite Azurnum]

Alright, finally, I'm able to answer these questions. 1) The ends of the spectrum are different per person involved. For instance, far as I can tell, a person with a fire spirit is able to toss around fire balls like it was nothing. Ranges and rate of fire are something I'm not sure I'm able to answer properly (and I don't know what you mean by area denial abilities).

Just give the highs, lows and the mode (most common) of the setting.

2) Yes, I'm pretty sure it does, actually.

What approximate level are you planning on making your character contract with and give us examples of the things he could pull off with that level.

3) The most physically inept of them is on normal human levels... though I highly doubt the Superman level is the highest they can get physically.

You'd be surprised how quickly light novels escalate their power levels. What is the highest level shown as far as you know?

. . . Hang on - "a couple?" And this is in addition to being a Keyblade wielder?

OK, warning: you have now crossed firmly into "ridiculously overpowered" territory. Please step away from the line.

Three more max, one for Ice, one for Wind and one for Earth. My character won't be getting anywhere near Demon Lord Solomon's level of Contracted Spirits.

Let me search for the appropriate response.
Don't do it.jpg

That's way too many for most people to suspend belief. Being a Contractor is already fairly snowflakey, getting 2 contracts is pushing it while 3 will get you mobbed. The only conceivably possible reason why you should even be getting that many is if those spirits are notably weak or don't play well with each other.

Spirit Elementalists are able to go to school, though much of the info I have suggests that they're more able to gain life experience than not, if anything.

Examples mate. Give us examples.

There's gonna be a template system involved with my character, Kieran, otherwise I'd really be overpowered like that. Whenever my character gains a template, he'll have to spend some time in that form, just to get it properly powerful enough to learn how to use even a slight bit of its power when out of the template. For example, after spending enough time in his Keyblader form, he'll be able to use a Keyblade in the other templates (but he can't change the key chain outside of the Keyblader template).

What, you mean like those Final Fantasy job systems?

Actually... yes.

Decent in theory, difficult to accomplish in d20.

I'll figure something out... I hope.

This is sounding a lot like Dual-classing from AD&D. A short primer: Dual classing is taking levels in class A, and then taking levels in class B. Unlike 3.x's multiclassing, once you start taking levels in class B you lose all benefits of class A until you reach the same class level with class B.

[Vigilantia]

Let me search for the appropriate response.
Don't do it.jpg

That's way too many for most people to suspend belief. Being a Contractor is already fairly snowflakey, getting 2 contracts is pushing it while 3 will get you mobbed. The only conceivably possible reason why you should even be getting that many is if those spirits are notably weak or don't play well with each other.

How borked overpowered would it be?

[Incarnite Azurnum]

How borked overpowered would it be?

The way I'm interpreting it, its the difference between having a grenade and having a flashbang, a smoke grenade and a fragmentation grenade. You just have more tools to work with.

[Kieran]

The fact that he's straining the boundaries of the local system that much is as much an issue as the power, really. He's coming in as an OC/SI, which automatically puts him in the negative for most readers when it comes to likability. Then we have:


1) He's a male with the Contractor power - that he needs to shift to female is a neat workaround, I admit, but unless Xam plans to do a whole lot of exploration of gender identity, it's not that big an issue, which means the main point still applies.

2) He has multiple spirits - which only three other people in the setting's entire history (that we're aware of) possess.

3) He's a Keyblader. Regardless of whether or not he can access it alongside his other powers, it's still a power set he already has.



Any one of those points should be sufficient for an OC - or a canon protagonist, for that matter. Having all three is overkill.

[Xamusel]

...let me clarify the first two points Kieran brought up earlier today:

1) Actually... I was planning to do a fair amount of exploration of gender identity (it'll be like what you'd get if you played Ranma 1/2 straight instead of for laughs).

2) Actually, no, I said only three males were able to contract in the setting's entire history. If that's not how it was read, I apologize, I should've been clearer. Plenty of other characters are able to use multiple spirits if they take the time to actually acquire them (Claire Rouge was trying to get a second spirit for a fair bit of volume 1 of the Light Novels).

Let me get to the rest of the complaints later (when I'm not as distracted).

[Kieran]

...let me clarify the first two points Kieran brought up earlier today:

1) Actually... I was planning to do a fair amount of exploration of gender identity (it'll be like what you'd get if you played Ranma 1/2 straight instead of for laughs).

Fair enough - just meant to warn you, it is a potential red flag.

2) Actually, no, I said only three males were able to contract in the setting's entire history. If that's not how it was read, I apologize, I should've been clearer. Plenty of other characters are able to use multiple spirits if they take the time to actually acquire them (Claire Rouge was trying to get a second spirit for a fair bit of volume 1 of the Light Novels).

My reading of the Wikipedia page is probably as much to blame, as anything - in either case, I sit corrected.

[Kieran]

Just an update on my character creation efforts, since work on the actual chapter will likely begin tomorrow:

I can't find a d20 class that would match even my Jack O'Lantern character, even the revised version I've been working on (a version of "dread" psionic class, combined with the shaman, is the closest I can come). Likewise, even if I switch to one of the other holiday figures (Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Cupid), I run into the same problem.

Fortunately, my fairy tale detective is easily converted - the skinwalker class variant I have in mind even circumvents even the problems inherent in lycanthropes in the Pathfinder system. So it's not a problem, per se - I just really would've liked to work with the holiday characters. Ah, well.



EDIT: An update on the update - character creation is going well (all I really lack is an alias), and the new chapter is 1 page complete. So, thus far, all things are going well.

In terms of the overall story, I pretty much know where I'm headed - and how I'll get there - I think. So I don't expect any major problems, so long as I have sufficient time (and no CTS attacks, or anything similar) to do my writing.

[Xamusel]

...CTS attacks?

[Kieran]

...CTS attacks?

Carpal tunnel syndrome. I've avoided that, but I have had an acid reflux attack, which has slowed me somewhat (I'm only up to 5 1/2 pages, so far) . . .

The major setback in my writing, however, is that I did find a way I could do Jack O'Lantern, so the two variations have been fighting it out in my head. (To say nothing of the occasional interruptions by the other character ideas - if I could figure out a proper way to do the Easter Bunny . . . *Shakes head*).

Anyway, I still think the chapter will be ready in time (I have to work all weekend, so it's a bit of a guess), but I might be a little late.

[Xamusel]

Ah... hopefully you can finish the chapter as soon as possible. Personally, I'm interested in seeing the fairy tale detective in action, Kieran.

Just do what you can to finish while taking care of your body in the process.

[Kieran]

Ah... hopefully you can finish the chapter as soon as possible. Personally, I'm interested in seeing the fairy tale detective in action, Kieran.

Well, the Hallowe'en one has been in my head for about ten years, so he's putting up a pretty good fight - but the fairy tale one is pretty much done, as long I can decide on . . . Ah, but that would be telling.

Just do what you can to finish while taking care of your body in the process.

Will do.

Oh! I found a few things you might find useful in designing either a Keyblade wielder or the "Spirit Elementalist" you were talking about, assuming you still want to use d20 (D&D and/or Pathfinder) rules:

Rules on Item Familiars

Rules on Legendary Weapons - this is what started me on Jack O'Lantern - I realised that I could turn the Lantern into a meteor hammer, and . . .

[Xamusel]

Oh? Thanks for the assist, Kieran, I'll go take a look at the links ASAP.

[Incarnite Azurnum]

There is another alternative which is similar to Legendary Weapons: Legacy Weapons from the Weapons of Legacy book. The basic concept is you get the weapon at level 5 and as you get level up, it gets stronger. However there are 2 main issues with that system:

1. Having a legacy weapon makes you sacrifice hit points; take a hit to skill checks, attack bonus,caster/manifester levels, base saves, spell slots or power points in varying combinations. There are some sacrifices' which are no brainers.
   
   • Most people who use this system ignore the penalties because you're already sacrificing feats to use the weapon. Did I forget that you had to burn feats to get to use these?
   
   
2. At 5th, 11th and 17th level, you have to go on a sidequest which can be really annoying and/or expensive.
   
   • From what I've heard, most people don't bother with the sidequests

The book has more thorough guidelines and support for their 'item creation' than item familiars and legendary weapons as those two are only optional rules which had to share space with a bunch of other rules in the same rulebook.