The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[Kieran]

Preferably while putting him up against some other evil mastermind, so I can enjoy the schadenfreude as everything goes wrong—or at least, weird—around him, the Wizard Marshall thought grumpily.

That sounded like a win-win situation to him . . .

. . . So, while things may be a bit delayed this week owing to RB's hard drive crash, and my work schedule, I thought I'd see if anyone had ideas/suggestions for which "evil mastermind" I could throw Frid up against. I admit, I've been looking into Umineko: When They Cry, of all things (I blame Higurashi); it is (unnecessarily) tragic, 20 billion yen of gold would be a lure for Rin, at least, and Frid's meta-nature would serve as a counter to some of the shenanigans) - but it gives me a godawful HEADACHE to contemplate . . .

If anyone has a slightly less absurd idea (or more absurd, but less migraine-inducing), I'm all ears.

[Arbitrarity]

I don't really have any good ideas, unfortunately. You need a threatening enough mastermind that the Exaltation doesn't just stomp all over the plot, but I'm not sure which of those would be actually interesting. You also seemingly need some supernatural elements, which rules out mostly-mundane settings. I can definitely agree with Umineko being a huge headache. The conflict between Zelretch needing a big threat and something being at the scale that the Works can handle is difficult to resolve.

A variety of isekai settings (Konosuba, Cautious Hero, etc) have been somewhat explored before, and while they mostly fit the bill, I'm not sure I'd suggest them. Persona always has some sufficiently large-scale confrontation that you can fit in sacrifices easily, but would also be a pretty heavy commitment.
You might be able to resolve this incidentally by using the Dark Powers, potentially during the Servant-verse excursion? Something like gradually corrupting Godafrid by tainting the Exaltation would be a good reason to give it up. The issue, of course, is doing that without threatening the rest of the setting, and obviously Zelretch would rather avoid the Dark Powers entirely, so it wouldn't be his doing.
You might get something out of Doctor Heartless from Case Files, but I'm not sure if you want to delve into that particular cross-over. The Ainsworths fall into the same bucket.

[Kieran]

I don't really have any good ideas, unfortunately. You need a threatening enough mastermind that the Exaltation doesn't just stomp all over the plot, but I'm not sure which of those would be actually interesting. You also seemingly need some supernatural elements, which rules out mostly-mundane settings. I can definitely agree with Umineko being a huge headache. The conflict between Zelretch needing a big threat and something being at the scale that the Works can handle is difficult to resolve.

That is the problem . . .

Generally speaking, my SIs are meant to have two advantages in any given situation/setting. The first and foremost is meta-knowledge; the second is whatever suite of supernatural or otherwise superhuman talents he has to hand - and in theory, the second is the less impressive portion of his arsenal. This requires, of course, that whatever he's up against be appropriately scaled - in the Trinity series, it was the fact that he started as a child, in the deathtrap of illogic that can be J.K. Rowling's writing. In Crisis of Fayth, he was an epic-level druid - but up against a kaiju, and an entire country's worth of enemies. Here, it's a Grail War, with all that that implies - plus the added madness that is letting my and RB's muses out to play.

(Seriously, we've collectively argued for weeks, over the course of this fic, trying to rein each other IN; for a while, as an example, there was a genuine possibility of Altrouge and Primate Murder showing up to smack Ymir around . . .).

. . . In any case, removing his meta-knowledge, as in the Higurashi scenario, can balance things out to a degree (though the circumstances both there and in Umineko are potentially staggering . . .). It at least would make the "mystery" portion of things more engaging, I'd hope. (And really, Zelretch just wants to throw Frid at an evil mastermind so that he can pull a Loki when seeing what happens to their schemes. )

A variety of isekai settings (Konosuba, Cautious Hero, etc) have been somewhat explored before, and while they mostly fit the bill, I'm not sure I'd suggest them.

Not quite, no - if only because most of those types are settings where the "evil mastermind" is the hero (wittingly or otherwise), or in general already power fantasies, or parodies of such. It's not quite the sort of thing that meets the criteria.

Persona always has some sufficiently large-scale confrontation that you can fit in sacrifices easily, but would also be a pretty heavy commitment.

At least a year, in-fic - although I admit, I've been toying with a plausible way to have Frid take Morgana's place . . .

You might be able to resolve this incidentally by using the Dark Powers, potentially during the Servant-verse excursion? Something like gradually corrupting Godafrid by tainting the Exaltation would be a good reason to give it up. The issue, of course, is doing that without threatening the rest of the setting, and obviously Zelretch would rather avoid the Dark Powers entirely, so it wouldn't be his doing.

Quite - though giving Strahd the runaround would fit the bill, kind of.

You might get something out of Doctor Heartless from Case Files, but I'm not sure if you want to delve into that particular cross-over. The Ainsworths fall into the same bucket.

Honestly, I've been toying with doing my own take on the Fate/strange fake concept - essentially, that someone has (sort of) copied the Grail War Ritual, going off intel gathered at the Third War, but not precisely. It would allow for certain Case Files characters to be used (Flat being the canon one, of course, but I could actually see Luvia funding the whole thing, just to one-up the Tohsakas), and possibly wind up in a position to join - and if nothing else, the Works still needs a functional Grail - but it's still very much in the conceptual stage

[Arbitrarity]

Generally speaking, my SIs are meant to have two advantages in any given situation/setting. The first and foremost is meta-knowledge; the second is whatever suite of supernatural or otherwise superhuman talents he has to hand - and in theory, the second is the less impressive portion of his arsenal. This requires, of course, that whatever he's up against be appropriately scaled - in the Trinity series, it was the fact that he started as a child, in the deathtrap of illogic that can be J.K. Rowling's writing. In Crisis of Fayth, he was an epic-level druid - but up against a kaiju, and an entire country's worth of enemies.

Personally I consider Crisis of Fayth as your weakest work for that reason. The power scale of an epic-level druid meant a LOT of things were solved with pat applications of druid spellcasting, and while Sin was still too strong for direct confrontation, the raw convenience and versatility of epic level 3.x characters trivialized almost everything else in the setting. The advantages of knowing the plot were there, but mostly exploited by brute force.
In Anarchy, Godafrid is nearly-mundane for most of the story, and even when his nature is revealed, that isn't terribly meaningful with how far things have escalated, so he's in a much more supportive role. Blending in and subterfuge definitely pair well with meta-knowledge.

Here, it's a Grail War, with all that that implies - plus the added madness that is letting my and RB's muses out to play.
(Seriously, we've collectively argued for weeks, over the course of this fic, trying to rein each other IN; for a while, as an example, there was a genuine possibility of Altrouge and Primate Murder showing up to smack Ymir around . . .).

Is this the foushadowing payoff? Yeah, that might have been a bit excessive.
You're definitely not kidding about "letting the muses out to play". I enjoy Anarchy as the blended mess of story elements it is, but even the title doesn't take itself seriously.

. . . In any case, removing his meta-knowledge, as in the Higurashi scenario, can balance things out to a degree (though the circumstances both there and in Umineko are potentially staggering . . .). It at least would make the "mystery" portion of things more engaging, I'd hope. (And really, Zelretch just wants to throw Frid at an evil mastermind so that he can pull a Loki when seeing what happens to their schemes. )

That is a very good way to stop the Exaltation from letting him immediately confront the antagonist. Since I also have not read Umineko (or finished Higurashi) the potential for mixing foreshadowing while retaining a mystery for readers sounds quite fun. Those stories are already quite complex though, so I can still definitely see headaches from needing to understand the original story, backtrack to a place of ignorance to play your SI, work out the consequences of his actions, and integrate that back into some semblance of the original plot.

Not quite, no - if only because most of those types are settings where the "evil mastermind" is the hero (wittingly or otherwise), or in general already power fantasies, or parodies of such. It's not quite the sort of thing that meets the criteria.

I was mostly going for "what has supernatural elements and sufficiently dangerous/destructive confrontations to threaten an Exalt" there, which leads itself to power fantasy, unsurprisingly. It definitely didn't feel right, since both would heavily de-emphasize the value of knowledge.

At least a year, in-fic - although I admit, I've been toying with a plausible way to have Frid take Morgana's place . . .

That definitely seems like an interesting idea. Morgana starts the story with a lot of unexplained knowledge, has amnesia... seems easy enough to fit in role-wise, the plot justification might be murkier. Avoiding the protagonist position offers a lot of fun opportunities for more subtle manipulations, and takes a few steps back from directly needing to drive the plot, plus avoids feeling too power-fantasy-y

Quite - though giving Strahd the runaround would fit the bill, kind of.

Well, Strahd isn't the Dark Powers, but as far as Zelretch's motivations, yeah. I'm tempted to wonder if you can have Darklord Godafrid from another Kaleidoscope facet, since Ravenloft is acting as a timeless area common between universes, like the Far Realm. That might be a bit too... self-indulgent? Not sure. Also might be leaning too hard into temporal paradoxes, we've already done silly things with those.

Honestly, I've been toying with doing my own take on the Fate/strange fake concept - essentially, that someone has (sort of) copied the Grail War Ritual, going off intel gathered at the Third War, but not precisely. It would allow for certain Case Files characters to be used (Flat being the canon one, of course, but I could actually see Luvia funding the whole thing, just to one-up the Tohsakas), and possibly wind up in a position to join - and if nothing else, the Works still needs a functional Grail - but it's still very much in the conceptual stage

I can see why you'd need to let that percolate a bit more, though it does sound interesting. Lots of original plotting to do.

[Kieran]

Personally I consider Crisis of Fayth as your weakest work for that reason. The power scale of an epic-level druid meant a LOT of things were solved with pat applications of druid spellcasting, and while Sin was still too strong for direct confrontation, the raw convenience and versatility of epic level 3.x characters trivialized almost everything else in the setting. The advantages of knowing the plot were there, but mostly exploited by brute force.

Fair enough. That is one of the reasons I decided to cut down on his power level . . .

In Anarchy, Godafrid is nearly-mundane for most of the story, and even when his nature is revealed, that isn't terribly meaningful with how far things have escalated, so he's in a much more supportive role. Blending in and subterfuge definitely pair well with meta-knowledge.

Which is a really good reason to keep his power-set "as is."

Is this the foushadowing payoff? Yeah, that might have been a bit excessive.
You're definitely not kidding about "letting the muses out to play". I enjoy Anarchy as the blended mess of story elements it is, but even the title doesn't take itself seriously.

We may have gone a LITTLE overboard, yes . . . And the arguments to go (or not to go) one way or another have, on occasion, lasted for days . . .

That is a very good way to stop the Exaltation from letting him immediately confront the antagonist.

That's my thought, yes.

Since I also have not read Umineko (or finished Higurashi) the potential for mixing foreshadowing while retaining a mystery for readers sounds quite fun. Those stories are already quite complex though, so I can still definitely see headaches from needing to understand the original story, backtrack to a place of ignorance to play your SI, work out the consequences of his actions, and integrate that back into some semblance of the original plot.

Absolutely - and the investment needed, particularly in regards to Umineko . . . I can spend $370 to get a 26-episode anime (which is incomplete, and apparently considered on par with the Tsukihime one by the series' fans), about that much to get the complete series of manga, which can run up to 624 pages in length, or about $60 on the actual games, with the understanding that at least 100 hours of my life is forfeit.

It's honestly not an easy call.

And then there's the question of what, exactly, to do with the story; if I choose to try an integrate the setting, like the Higurashi snippets implied, well . . . The TYPE-MOON world is dangerous, but the concepts that these series involve could be cataclysmic on the scale of a Grail War . . .

I was mostly going for "what has supernatural elements and sufficiently dangerous/destructive confrontations to threaten an Exalt" there, which leads itself to power fantasy, unsurprisingly. It definitely didn't feel right, since both would heavily de-emphasize the value of knowledge.

Understandable.

That definitely seems like an interesting idea. Morgana starts the story with a lot of unexplained knowledge, has amnesia... seems easy enough to fit in role-wise, the plot justification might be murkier. Avoiding the protagonist position offers a lot of fun opportunities for more subtle manipulations, and takes a few steps back from directly needing to drive the plot, plus avoids feeling too power-fantasy-y

*Nods* And again, I can do it plausibly, thanks to Third Edition rules (I am so pleased with these - why couldn't Scion's new edition have turned out this well . . .?)

Well, Strahd isn't the Dark Powers, but as far as Zelretch's motivations, yeah. I'm tempted to wonder if you can have Darklord Godafrid from another Kaleidoscope facet, since Ravenloft is acting as a timeless area common between universes, like the Far Realm. That might be a bit too... self-indulgent? Not sure. Also might be leaning too hard into temporal paradoxes, we've already done silly things with those.

Honestly, yes - I'm trying to tie up some of the dangling plot threads here, not fray loose a few more . . .

I can see why you'd need to let that percolate a bit more, though it does sound interesting. Lots of original plotting to do.

Exactly. Thus far, I've figured that it's too dangerous for Shirou, Saber, Sakura or Rider - well, too dangerous for anybody, but given that Arturia or Medousa could end up getting used to power the other Grail if defeated . . . (though as hidden trumps, they might prove useful).

. . . Actually, that's really true of Rider; since this is (theoretically) a "pure" Grail, the addition of an Anti-Hero would probably be BAD. Which would make some of the really fun Servants ineligible, anyways . . .

That's a shame, really; I was kind of looking forward to Frid's pulling a prank on Rin where he gave her a catalyst that would allow her to finally summon a Saber - and getting the appropriately-Crimson Heroine, Brave Eli-chan.

[Arbitrarity]

Fair enough. That is one of the reasons I decided to cut down on his power level . . .

That did seem obvious from how Kurai became Godafrid, yes. Sorry, I figured it was a place where that criticism contextually made sense. My view is also somewhat coloured by having spent YEARS reading about 3.5 character optimization, so I will note that I appreciated Kurai being both not severely optimized, and having a fairly well laid-out backstory for why (it has been a few years and I may be conflating it with information about Kieran Holt's backstory in Trinity). But ninth level spells just tend to sweep away most problems that aren't "kill a god", and having the full spell list known offers a similarly terrifying level of versatility, especially when given time to plan.
I have said, and will continue to say, that Trinity is superlatively good self-insert fiction, and I really enjoy seeing the level of thought that goes into balancing your story concepts and narratives.

Which is a really good reason to keep his power-set "as is."

The trick, I suppose, is that it works best if he actually needs to employ subterfuge. Lacking information, or just not being in the protagonist's shoes, are both good ways to accomplish that.

Absolutely - and the investment needed, particularly in regards to Umineko . . . I can spend $370 to get a 26-episode anime (which is incomplete, and apparently considered on par with the Tsukihime one by the series' fans), about that much to get the complete series of manga, which can run up to 624 pages in length, or about $60 on the actual games, with the understanding that at least 100 hours of my life is forfeit.

Amuses me how the VN is longer than the manga and anime, but that tends to be the case. Tsukihime-tier anime... yikes.

Honestly, yes - I'm trying to tie up some of the dangling plot threads here, not fray loose a few more . . .

I am cursed with asking "what could be possible" and I must stretch the bounds of what seems vaguely thematically connected as far as I can. I'm optimizing for that half-second of "huh, that could be interesting" before the reality of all the tradeoffs made to get there are examined.
Kurai and Godafrid have always been more unambiguously good than Galen was, so especially with the involvement of the Dark Powers, exploring some variety of "what are Godafrid's moral failings" seemed interesting, and I had to jump straight to "as a Dreadlord, what sort of horribly ironic curse would the Dark Powers lay on him?"

. . . Actually, that's really true of Rider; since this is (theoretically) a "pure" Grail, the addition of an Anti-Hero would probably be BAD. Which would make some of the really fun Servants ineligible, anyways . . .

I suddenly wonder what would have happened had the Fuyuki grail been corrupted by a Moon Cancer or Foreigner instead. Presumably things would have become very silly, or very weird.

That's a shame, really; I was kind of looking forward to Frid's pulling a prank on Rin where he gave her a catalyst that would allow her to finally summon a Saber - and getting the appropriately-Crimson Heroine, Brave Eli-chan.

This is absolutely awful. And you did set him up with that catalyst too, so this is totally plausible. I've seen enough CCC to know how that interaction goes, and it is nowhere good.

[Kieran]

That did seem obvious from how Kurai became Godafrid, yes. Sorry, I figured it was a place where that criticism contextually made sense.

And it was, so no worries.

My view is also somewhat coloured by having spent YEARS reading about 3.5 character optimization, so I will note that I appreciated Kurai being both not severely optimized, and having a fairly well laid-out backstory for why (it has been a few years and I may be conflating it with information about Kieran Holt's backstory in Trinity).

*Nods* Unlike a lot of characters nowadays, the campaign that created him focussed on story; and it was long-running enough to be a fairly detailed one. It's part of why he was still my favourite character to play. And as only my second D&D character at the time, "optimisation" wasn't even a consideration - I didn't know the system well enough at the time to consider what that might mean. And, of course, a lot of what he had were reactions to things in-story.

Nowadays, if I redesigned him, it would be to be rules-compliant, and he would be very different; still powerful, but nowhere near as "sweep away all who stand against me."

But ninth level spells just tend to sweep away most problems that aren't "kill a god", and having the full spell list known offers a similarly terrifying level of versatility, especially when given time to plan.

Very true. And the other major issue with the druid was that modern-day Earth and all equivalents thereof (without even getting into the nuances of TYPE-MOON Earth, specifically) are a druid's idea of a Hell World - so between the two factors, it was easier to just let the template go.

I have said, and will continue to say, that Trinity is superlatively good self-insert fiction, and I really enjoy seeing the level of thought that goes into balancing your story concepts and narratives.

Thank you.

The trick, I suppose, is that it works best if he actually needs to employ subterfuge. Lacking information, or just not being in the protagonist's shoes, are both good ways to accomplish that.

And it's kind of intended to be his role by design; the Works is meant to operate subtly, so I'm aiming to render him an intelligence/infiltration type - with really weird luck, of course . . .

Which, naturally, leads back to the issues with partnering him: he essentially fills the role of a Caster or Assassin by himself, and since I'm operating under the idea that the Works can support six Servants (because seven might trigger a Grail War), one per Class, that means (theoretically) that up to four Classes are unusable. Or six, if you count Frid as "Foreigner," and Ilya as "Ruler" - seven if you disallow the Avenger class (which, with a "pure" Grail, we probably should . . .)

It doesn't leave me with much to work with, overall. Especially if I go with the "Strange/fake" idea, and disallow Anti-Heroes, as well.

Amuses me how the VN is longer than the manga and anime, but that tends to be the case.

It does help that the full story comprises eight of them - I'm just not sure if it's meant to be 100 hours overall, per arc, or per novel . . .

Tsukihime-tier anime... yikes.

So I am given to understand, at least; and it notes that it doesn't cover all the arcs, regardless of its actual quality. Which makes it really unsuitable, but also the fastest and most immersive (since I'll get to see how characters look, sound, and move) way to get into the details of the story.

. . . The really frustrating part is, as migraine-inducing as the plot is, Umineko also seems like a setting that really needs the Works' intervention, and ideal for Godafrid in particular: an Agatha Christie-style murder mystery where the entire plot appears to be to actually determine whether or not the murders were supernatural in nature, characters whose backstories and outlooks make Kohaku and Sakura seem like Pollyanna by comparison (more than one character describes themselves as "furniture" - at least Kohaku kept herself humanoid as a "doll"), something akin to the Second Magic, and a level of meta that has to be seen to be believed (like a "self-insert" character already being present in the setting).

. . . And amusingly, I found an "Exalted vs. Umineko antagonists" discussion elsewhere; while five of the six pages devolved into rules arguments (which I understand is common for "Exalted vs." discussions), one opinion stated that the best chance of victory an Exalt had against them was to break out the social Charms and seduce them.

I am cursed with asking "what could be possible" and I must stretch the bounds of what seems vaguely thematically connected as far as I can. I'm optimizing for that half-second of "huh, that could be interesting" before the reality of all the tradeoffs made to get there are examined.

That's a pretty accurate description of my own muse, too.

Kurai and Godafrid have always been more unambiguously good than Galen was,

If only because they're actually living out their fantasy life, and making an actual difference in people's lives - it's a lot easier to be positive under those circumstances.

so especially with the involvement of the Dark Powers, exploring some variety of "what are Godafrid's moral failings" seemed interesting, and I had to jump straight to "as a Dreadlord, what sort of horribly ironic curse would the Dark Powers lay on him?"

My life, probably.

I suddenly wonder what would have happened had the Fuyuki grail been corrupted by a Moon Cancer or Foreigner instead. Presumably things would have become very silly, or very weird.

I have often pondered that, myself - but "Moon Cancer" is hard to justify, in the non-digital environment, and "Foreigner" would probably mean me . . .

This is absolutely awful. And you did set him up with that catalyst too, so this is totally plausible. I've seen enough CCC to know how that interaction goes, and it is nowhere good.

Well, Brave Elizabeth Bathory is Chaotic Good, and actually trying to match that alignment, so she's not so bad - but the rest . . .

[Kieran]

 



Koyo Town, Japan
October 16, 2005







In retrospect. Rin really should have seen this coming. If nothing else, he knew—he knew—that these particular events were supposed to follow what had already happened, but in his defence, he was still trying to figure just how it had all happened in the first place.

. . . I mean, I was trying to avoid locking myself into a route at all—so how the hell did I wind up on Nerine’s?!

It was a question he asked himself daily (or more often, when she was feeling particularly affectionate), but the answer had yet to come to him—and this streak continued as he lay in bed, feeling a particular set of eyes on him alongside the morning sun.

Tempted though he was to ignore both and sink back into sleep, the sense of those eyes, and the corresponding lack of a warm body beside him, indicated that Nerine was up and eager to be about the day, despite her natural reticence to disturb him. And since he didn’t want to upset her, Rin supposed he ought to get up.

“How late did you let me sleep in?” he asked, prior to opening his eyes—just in time to see her jump at the sudden question.

“Good morning, Rin-sama,” Nerine said warmly. “And it’s nearly after noon . . . Um, I should really wash the bedding before . . .”

Right—today was the day of Nerine’s planned “sleepover” while her parents were back in the World of the Devils, celebrating their anniversary. And given who was left on the guest list, after family emergencies and club plans had caused sudden cancellations on behalf of most of the presumed attendees, it was best not to give them any ammunition to work with. Most of them would either be upset or make cracks about their sex life, but those two were the worst offenders.

(Again, in Rin’s defence, Nerine had looked absolutely divine in that miko costume—if such could be applied to a Devil—and he was, physically, a healthy teenaged male. And Nerine, as quiet and submissive as she seemed—and was, mostly—was a very eager participant.)

“Right—you’re absolutely right,” he said aloud, rising out of bed—and then it was his turn to jump at Nerine’s startled “Kyah!”

The Devil princess’s hand flew up to cover her face in embarrassment, but her fingers were spread such let her eyes peer through them. Following her gaze made the source of her reaction obvious, and Rin grabbed the blanket quickly.

“. . . I would’ve thought you’d be used to seeing that sort of thing by now, Nerine,” he said quietly.

“. . . Well, um . . .It’s you, after all . . .” she said embarrassedly. Hands now free of her face, her scarlet eyes remained fixed below his waistline, despite the blanket’s coverage. “ . . . Um, you were so excited, it looked painful . . . Would you mind letting it out . . . ?”

If you knew Nerine well enough, Rin reflected, you could hear the anticipation in her question—it was subtle, but it was definitely there.

“Do we have enough time before they get here . . .?” he asked gently.

After all, if Nerine had been on the verge of waking him up so that she could do laundry, he suspected their guests’ arrival time was close.

“. . . I suppose not,” she allowed, sounding disappointed, though she smiled softly at him. “It’s good of you to be so responsible, Rin-sama . . .”

“Don’t be so quick to compliment me, Neri-chan,” he countered with a grin. “If I help you with the laundry, and setting up the snacks, do you have time to join me in the shower . . .?”

The war was visible on Nerine’s face: she liked playing housewife and was responsible enough to want to be a proper hostess to her expected guests—but on the other hand, she was just as young and hormonal as he was.

“. . . Well, if it’s Rin-sama’s wish, then . . .” the Princess of the Devils finally said shyly.

Despite the choice of words, she didn’t sound at all put out by the request.








One would conventionally assume that most fathers of teenaged girls would feel less-than-comfortable, at the very least, to leave their daughters home alone; even more so when said daughter was both a princess and as beautiful as Nerine. And undoubtedly, should said daughter bring up the idea of having her friends sleep over while her parents were away, it should naturally be assumed that the aforementioned “friends” had better not include teenaged boys . . .

Anyone who did assume that, however, had clearly never spent five minutes in the King of the Devils’ presence.

Rin’s first inkling of Nerine’s desired sleepover had come at 10 PM, three days before, when the aforementioned head of state had burst into his home shouting like a madman, wailing that it was an EMERGENCY! Nerine wanted to have a sleepover and Rin absolutely HAD to come, or there would be fire, floods, famines, and other random signs of the Apocalypse . . .!

(Nerine had not been pleased by her father’s histrionics—though neither had anyone else, really. Rin was convinced that it was only the fact that there were only three houses on the entire block—her own, Rin and Kaede’s, and the King of the Gods and his family—that had prevented the neighbours from filing a noise complaint.)

Even with the boosts he could make to his intelligence, his perceptiveness, his mind’s sheer processing power, Rin did not understand that man. In fact, he was pretty sure he didn’t ever want to, if for no other reason than because the miko outfit had been his idea . . .

Absolute proof, if any more was needed, that he comes from a completely different world—where else would a father not only not want to murder the horny little bastard screwing his daughter, but teach her how to cosplay for him. . .?

Given the choice, Rin knew he wouldn’t be as generous.

Whatever his (many and aggravating) flaws, however, the King of the Devils absolutely doted on his daughter; if she wanted a sleepover, a sleepover she would have. That he had no idea what such a thing was or what it entailed was irrelevant and had thus led him to barging in his aforementioned state. Despite the less-than-promising start, things had been going well, until people had been forced to drop out—Sia to family activities, with Sion following in order to discuss “Project Kikyou” (he held high hopes for that), Asa and Kareha to working responsibilities at Flora, Kaede going off to take care of her ill father with Primula in tow . . .

That left the guest list, aside from himself, down to two: Mayumi and Itsuki.

This would no doubt lead to at least one headache for him over the holiday (if he felt ludicrously optimistic about things), but at least Nerine would be able to have some of the experience she wanted. And being no less besotted with Nerine than the King of Devils was (though in an entirely different way, hopefully), Rin had kept any snarky comments to himself, for a change. The approach had already yielded dividends: he’d been invited over the night before the sleepover.

Granted, she might have done that anyways. After all, Sia or Kaede might be more vocal about a chance to play at being newlyweds, having the house to themselves, but Nerine was hardly liable to be immune to the idea—still, why not see it as a reward for good behaviour?

“. . . Rin?” Itsuki asked with a cheerful smile, “can I hit you with something blunt and heavy? Blunt and heavy and covered in metal spikes?”

“Can you . . .?” Rin countered challengingly.

His behaviour aside, Itsuki wasn’t stupid (even if that was sometimes really, really hard to believe); he had to know that Rin was A), very hard to hit in general, and B), absolutely going to retaliate to any given attack. And that, while not in bad shape for an average teenage male, if it really came down to it Rin could likely put him through a wall—and without resorting to magic to do it, the way Nerine would.

(Though to be fair, there wouldn’t be a wall to put Itsuki through if Nerine did it. Or anything of Itsuki, or the rest of the building—and, if her father was to be believed, much of anything else for a couple of blocks . . .)

Itsuki scowled, but said nothing more—instead, it was Mayumi who replied, pouting, “Watching the two of you be so lovey-dovey . . . It makes me want to take pictures and spread copies around all the fan clubs . . .”

“Mayumi,” Rin said carefully, “think back to a few years ago: what happened when the fan clubs got possessive. . .?”

She blinked, visibly considered the question, and said “Ah . . .”

The arrival of Nerine and Sia had restarted the fan club problem, adding theirs to Kaede’s. So far, no incident had equalled the dozen-to-one beatdown attempt of junior high; partly because the fan clubs remembered the results, and partly because respected students like Asa and Sion were helping Kaede and the princesses in diffusing the social blowback, this time. Still, they’d been willing to try it once, and there were more of them, now—Rin considered it a matter of time . . .

“And if you drive all the fan clubs into an actually murderous jealous rage,” he therefore continued leadingly, “what happens then?”

Because he would defend hims—

“They would die,” Nerine said immediately, her tone uncharacteristically flat. “Because any threat to Rin-sama’s well-being should be erased from existence . . .!”

The Princess of the Devils’ unexpected vehemence caught them all off-guard—it was a complete 180-degree turn from her usual softspoken, demure demeanour—but it didn’t actually surprise Rin. Nerine had told those older students badmouthing him that she’d kill them painlessly; mostly because the blast she was charging would vaporise them. And while it hadn’t done either of those things to them, the gymnasium, on the other hand . . .

Still, as Mayumi and Itsuki stared dumbfounded at Nerine, he added, in a calculated tone, “And since you, your family, and Sia’s have diplomatic immunity, the most that will happen is that Japanese government asks you to leave the country . . .”

Itsuki went pale as the implications sank in—Nerine was the more reserved princess, after all, whereas Sia was known to chastise her father with a chair to the skull.

Yeah, Rin thought. You guys haven’t really thought through some of what this whole “potential King of the Gods or Devils” thing actually means, have you . . .?

“Ahahahaha—anyways . . .” Mayumi trailed off awkwardly, glancing around the parlour. “That’s a very expensive-looking mirror, Nerine-chan—did you get it in the World of the Devils?”

“Ah—yes,” Nerine said, switching gears a little more smoothly than Mayumi, though the colour of her cheeks suggested that her outburst had embarrassed her. “I’ve always liked the blue colour of that stone in the frame, so I asked Father if he could bring it with us.”

“It is remarkable craftsmanship,” Itsuki commented. “A very high-end item. And the stone is quite eye-catching.”

Nerine nodded. “Yes, but I had to leave the magic unsealed, or it would’ve dulled the colour in the stone—so you shouldn’t touch it.”

“Eh?” Mayumi jumped, startled—

As ominous pulses of sound and light began to fill the room . . .

One part of Rin was groaning “I REALLY should’ve seen this coming,” as the rest of him was gathering Essence. The Exalt began channelling it to sharpen his perceptions and reaction times, even as he pooled the rest of it towards an effort that he was hoping meant that he could manage to at least distort whatever was coming, if not undo it entirely.

Then that same surge of mental clarity crystallised in the sudden realisation of what this event had to be; more than that—what it had to mean . . . And he let all his gathered energies fall away, to let the pulsating light and air sweep them up.

Because this would be dangerous, as it relied on circumstances Rin knew about only through hearsay and incomplete wiki articles; it required using an idea he could only charitably call “experimental” even if he did get the chance to do it, and the entire situation ran the risk of unmaking Nerine as he knew her. . . But it might also be his one chance—the only chance—to actually keep his promise.

Hang on, Lycoris—I’m coming . . .

[Arbitrarity]

That's certainly a timeskip. That basically jumps over anything left in the "main game", though for good reason, since we're off to the past. A few good reasons to do this, between Primula and the Works' meta-temporal perspective, and the impact Lycoris' death had on Rin, plus, as mentioned

it relied on circumstances Rin knew about only through hearsay and incomplete wiki articles

Which is always fun.

That does leave Carnelian's introduction last snippet dangling a bit, though there are some obvious parallels.

[Kieran]

That's certainly a timeskip. That basically jumps over anything left in the "main game", though for good reason, since we're off to the past. A few good reasons to do this, between Primula and the Works' meta-temporal perspective, and the impact Lycoris' death had on Rin, plus, as mentioned

Which is always fun.

That does leave Carnelian's introduction last snippet dangling a bit, though there are some obvious parallels.

Which is the main reason I had it as "Primula's Original Timeline" - i.e., before Carnelian showed up . . .

The dialogue, though, is taken almost entirely from Tick! Tack! (I managed to get it back, if nothing else from my original computer, yet.) So yes, Itsuki does open a conversation with threats of murder, Nerine's dad does start bellowing like a madman in the middle of the night, and that is exactly Nerine's reaction to inadvertently being flashed . . .

(And I'm not sure whether to be bemused by the fact that the game's Rin brushes it off as a "normal physiological reaction" she doesn't need to worry about, or proud of the fact that this Rin doesn't disappoint her . . . )

But yeah, this game does offer the chance, if Rin plays his cards right (and has the right cards to play) to save Lycoris; sadly, however, it's not like he has a "Nerine watch" to gauge the effects he's having on the timeline . . .

[Xamusel]

Well... this is proving more than a little awkward for Rin Salvatore-- *ahem* excuse me, Kieran, Rin Tsuchimi. I hope that Nerine gets to stay alive alongside Lycoris in this side story.

[Kieran]

We shall see, perhaps . . .?

[Xamusel]

I truly hope that the timeline effects work pretty well for you... in-universe, I mean, man.

[Arbitrarity]

Which is the main reason I had it as "Primula's Original Timeline" - i.e., before Carnelian showed up . . .

Ahhh, I... see? So this is a preceding timeline and a different Rin, though he seems to have mostly parallel experiences. We don't have tenses to describe this!
In retrospect I should have read Carnelian's perspective again, she specifically mentions that Rin didn't end up with Nerine. That wouldn't necessarily be inconsistent with this being the main timeline Rin is in in the other snippets, but would be relevant to consider for the status of this snippet. So now we have something like...

Timeline 1: Primula original, Rin x Nerine, Tick Tack! time travel leads to...
Timeline 2: Rin attempts to save Lycoris further back in time, unknown other effects
Timeline 3: Carnelian's timeline, Rin x Sia
Timeline 4: "main story", Like Timeline 1, except earlier, and Primula is observing and Carnelian has come into it

And Timeline 2 there might also be 3, but it's definitely not sure if that's the case or not. Heck, 2 could be 4, if Lycoris' death is faked to avoid paradox. We can assume it's not both though, since the main story is explicitly not Carnelian's timeline, according to Word of Primula.

I was kinda expecting Rin to not actually have too many timeline duplicates, which is probably why I didn't consider this might be an outright different timeline.

[Kieran]

Ahhh, I... see? So this is a preceding timeline and a different Rin, though he seems to have mostly parallel experiences.

Only technically - remember, according to Primula, Carnelian is in the wrong past, so this would basically be what would've happened if she didn't show up (and still might be the story proper, since Nelia is basically a cipher unless I can find a real source of information on Episode 2).

We don't have tenses to describe this!

A common issue with time travel - I feel your pain.

In retrospect I should have read Carnelian's perspective again, she specifically mentions that Rin didn't end up with Nerine. That wouldn't necessarily be inconsistent with this being the main timeline Rin is in in the other snippets, but would be relevant to consider for the status of this snippet. So now we have something like...

Timeline 1: Primula original, Rin x Nerine, Tick Tack! time travel leads to...
Timeline 2: Rin attempts to save Lycoris further back in time, unknown other effects
Timeline 3: Carnelian's timeline, Rin x Sia
Timeline 4: "main story", Like Timeline 1, except earlier, and Primula is observing and Carnelian has come into it

And Timeline 2 there might also be 3, but it's definitely not sure if that's the case or not. Heck, 2 could be 4, if Lycoris' death is faked to avoid paradox. We can assume it's not both though, since the main story is explicitly not Carnelian's timeline, according to Word of Primula.

More like 1 could be 2, if it's a really long loop . . .

I was kinda expecting Rin to not actually have too many timeline duplicates, which is probably why I didn't consider this might be an outright different timeline.

Which is fair.

[Kieran]

This is abstract enough it might fit better in the Grail Works general discussion thread, though.

Ask, and ye shall receive . . .

It grew on me a bit after brainstorming some other fairly basic ideas (I am distinctly not creative, so I'm basically permuting together story hooks or characters and checking if they relate to death/the underworld, Pseudo-Servants, or Sumerian mythology)

Looking at this list, I respectively disagree as to your belief in your creativity.

- It didn't really make sense to say that Kur was related to the Demiplane of Dread, even if they share some thematic similarities. For some reason the entire "Dreadlords are cursed in a terribly ironic way" thing seemed to mesh with how Ereshkigal keeps trying to improve Kur and failing.

That is an interesting point, because it does fit, even if Fate's Eresh isn't quite evil enough to warrant it . . . Well, not while bonded with Rin, anyway. The mythological Ereshkigal, on the other hand, might qualify, if gods were subject to Ravenloft's punishments.

- Orpheus-ing Laeticia seems too trite, and there's no reason to stick her in the Mesopotamian afterlife.

That would, in fact, be rather cruel to do to a devout Christian.

She also probably doesn't make a reasonable Pseudo-Servant host for a completely different Servant.

Hard to say - I suppose in theory, she might be compatible with anyone similar enough to Jeanne . . . *Chuckles*And now I'm picturing her as a pale-skinned Lakshmibai, apologising profusely when things go horribly wrong.

. . . Kind of funny, but kind of a thin joke, too.

- Pseudo-servant Fiore... might work? Feels simplistic, but Spiritual Evocation can be loosely related to death, even with the lack of canon detail, and her personality doesn't seem entirely incompatible.

Maybe - I suppose they have being big sisters in common . . . But as I've noted, using Fiore has other issues, too.

- I have no idea what's going on with Kara from Melancholy of One, since it's been too long since I read it, I haven't really seen her used elsewhere, and I don't know if she's available. She has a deep relationship with death that I thought might be interesting.

I suppose I could always ask Pureauthor . . .

- Killing Godafrid or having a near-death experience and making him a Geistcaller gives him a connection with death, but isn't really a novel concept

The fact that Ereshkigal is a Deathlord in that setting is a plus, mind you - sadly, there's no detail whatsoever on what that means, really.

- Erik's use of obsidian mirror shards from an Aztec death goddess are death-adjacent, but that's not really enough to make it a plot hook. Shiki is in the same boat.

Quite.

- Saying "Hanali did it" requires at least a bit more explanation. It can lubricate other explanations, but not create them out of whole cloth.

No - particularly as the Mesopotamian gods were part of the Realms' pantheon in the ancient past (or at least, Inanna and her daughter, Ishtar were), but were supplanted long ago.

- Saying "Zelretch did it" opens a ridiculously huge space of possibilities. The lack of constraints makes it difficult to consider with my aforementioned lack of creativity

For what it's worth, I consider needing to resort to that a lack of creativity, which is why I've been avoiding it.

Dropping the Sword of Atli into the Age of the Gods seemed incredibly simple, but the relationship between Mars, Sefar, and the Age of the Gods actually fit together a bit, thematically. The problem, as I mentioned, is that it's creation myth, so has ridiculous power level and is a bit... sacred? to be interacting with. That said, there's precedent for having differences in that part of pre-history. It's also potentially more temporal paradox weirdness, and would be a bit of a stretch to relate to Ereshkigal specifically.

Agreed.

Alternatively, the relationship between the Sword of War/Mars and the Goddess of Victory/Venus (or just any treasure and Mankind's Oldest Hero) seemed at least thematically coherent, albeit mixing metaphors. Heck, the FGO Christmas event that featured Ereshkigal had Altera the Santa in it.

True - and I've honestly considered Altera the Santa, at various points, as a potential partner for Frid; it seemed like a version of her who might be happy with the position. As to Eresh, though . . .

. . . See? Really aggravating to try and find a reasonable explanation, isn't it?

[Arbitrarity]

That is an interesting point, because it does fit, even if Fate's Eresh isn't quite evil enough to warrant it . . . Well, not while bonded with Rin, anyway. The mythological Ereshkigal, on the other hand, might qualify, if gods were subject to Ravenloft's punishments.

Yeah, between the tier of divinity and being cross-setting, it didn't really make sense. It just seemed like an interesting parallel if I squinted at it a bit.

Hard to say - I suppose in theory, she might be compatible with anyone similar enough to Jeanne . . . *Chuckles*And now I'm picturing her as a pale-skinned Lakshmibai, apologising profusely when things go horribly wrong.

. . . Kind of funny, but kind of a thin joke, too.

I do enjoy how ridiculously unlucky Lakshmibai is, now that I've seen it, but yeah, that seems a bit limited.

The fact that Ereshkigal is a Deathlord in that setting is a plus, mind you - sadly, there's no detail whatsoever on what that means, really.

I'm not surprised they'd make her one, as an underworld deity, but that does seem to be hard to work with.

No - particularly as the Mesopotamian gods were part of the Realms' pantheon in the ancient past (or at least, Inanna and her daughter, Ishtar were), but were supplanted long ago.

I can imagine her doing something opportunistically if Ereshkigal isn't protected by her own domain/Authority, but otherwise there's really no mechanism for anything to happen there.
Though I recall some interesting inter-setting deity interactions in some snippets in here. I think they were Konosuba-related?

For what it's worth, I consider needing to resort to that a lack of creativity, which is why I've been avoiding it.
[...]
. . . See? Really aggravating to try and find a reasonable explanation, isn't it?

It feels unnatural to try and solve for a specific goal like this. Usually, I'd want to pick from among possible futures based on what makes sense in the present story state, or introduce story elements based on "what would be interesting" in some abstract sense (though again, not a writer, so this is what I imagine the process is like, and "interesting" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence)

I imagine it doesn't help that it feels like a self-indulgent outcome, rather than one that's intrinsically interesting. Motivated reasoning taints the process, which raises the bar for how natural the explanation needs to be.

I can definitely see why that would make handwaving "Zelretch does something" incredibly unappealing. I'd think there should be a large set of possible crossovers or plots that could incidentally and naturally incorporate Eresh, but they would need to be picked for being interesting in their own right first.

[RanmaBushiko]

Yeah, between the tier of divinity and being cross-setting, it didn't really make sense. It just seemed like an interesting parallel if I squinted at it a bit.


I do enjoy how ridiculously unlucky Lakshmibai is, now that I've seen it, but yeah, that seems a bit limited.


I'm not surprised they'd make her one, as an underworld deity, but that does seem to be hard to work with.


I can imagine her doing something opportunistically if Ereshkigal isn't protected by her own domain/Authority, but otherwise there's really no mechanism for anything to happen there.
Though I recall some interesting inter-setting deity interactions in some snippets in here. I think they were Konosuba-related?


It feels unnatural to try and solve for a specific goal like this. Usually, I'd want to pick from among possible futures based on what makes sense in the present story state, or introduce story elements based on "what would be interesting" in some abstract sense (though again, not a writer, so this is what I imagine the process is like, and "interesting" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence)

I imagine it doesn't help that it feels like a self-indulgent outcome, rather than one that's intrinsically interesting. Motivated reasoning taints the process, which raises the bar for how natural the explanation needs to be.

I can definitely see why that would make handwaving "Zelretch does something" incredibly unappealing. I'd think there should be a large set of possible crossovers or plots that could incidentally and naturally incorporate Eresh, but they would need to be picked for being interesting in their own right first.

Welcome to the "Trying to figure out how to shoehorn in a lancer Kieran likes" discussion, Arbitrarity! Considering I've been having it repeatedly with him over the last couple years, and your idea of the Sword of Atli getting stuck in the past being one of the few rational methods we've found for possibly getting Godafrid Ereshkigal as a servant? Definitely an interesting take on things.

And yes, though he's sworn to not ever touch the Konosuba deities being involved in Kantai Collection/Arpeggio of Blue Steel clusterfuck that I've been working on for that side story. (Figuring out the Admiralty code alone for a sane, rational explanation... UGH. Stupid thrice damned manga plot... not to mention exactly how to make sure Servants arejust as interesting in a setting about shipgirls...) it still could actually lead to some interesting events as a result. What with Koyanskaya getting ready to fuck the entirety of that version of Heaven over... wait.

*pauses*

*facepalms*

Or it could be so simple as to have Godafrid's wish be for a Servant Ereshkigal that isn't linked to Rin to help him for his travels instead of Shirou Emiya...

[Arbitrarity]

Welcome to the "Trying to figure out how to shoehorn in a lancer Kieran likes" discussion, Arbitrarity! Considering I've been having it repeatedly with him over the last couple years, and your idea of the Sword of Atli getting stuck in the past being one of the few rational methods we've found for possibly getting Godafrid Ereshkigal as a servant? Definitely an interesting take on things.

Not sure I'd call it a "rational method", it's a skeleton of a ghost of a plot idea that would need a lot more specifics filled in.

And yes, though he's sworn to not ever touch the Konosuba deities being involved in Kantai Collection/Arpeggio of Blue Steel clusterfuck that I've been working on for that side story.

Ah right, that WAS you.

Or it could be so simple as to have Godafrid's wish be for a Servant Ereshkigal that isn't linked to Rin to help him for his travels instead of Shirou Emiya...

Wait wait, Godafrid has a wish... when? I recall that was Shirou wishing for HIM during the Konosuba snippets. Still, it is a very straightforward solution. There's precedent so powerful that it cannot be argued with.

[RanmaBushiko]

Not sure I'd call it a "rational method", it's a skeleton of a ghost of a plot idea that would need a lot more specifics filled in.

True enough, unfortunately. But Kieran's ideas for how things would go for Fate/Anarchy kinda changed my ideas that involved Ymir and the Wolfen duking it out over Iraq while using the gem of power to wake Ereshkigal up in the hopes she'd help... a lot.

Ah right, that WAS you.

Yup.

Wait wait, Godafrid has a wish... when? I recall that was Shirou wishing for HIM during the Konosuba snippets. Still, it is a very straightforward solution. There's predent so powerful that it cannot be argued with.

Crap. I got it backwards... still... the ending option IS a wish... I blame the time period working on my side of things, and the latest chapter. Still, you can understand my struggles now.