The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[Xamusel]

Kieran, I like the latter part of that post, your idea as a whole. Please do it.

[Kieran]

I'd have to handle it carefully . . . But given that my other idea for handling things at the moment is having Assassin Ryogi Shiki possess her comatose body, and get to live out her life (far, far away from the Works, otherwise) in exchange for a few precise cuts on Sakura before the Grail War officially starts . . .

[Xamusel]

You have a good point on that front, Kieran... hmm. I might have an idea. I just need to write it out for everyone's benefit.

[Kieran]

You have a good point on that front, Kieran... hmm. I might have an idea. I just need to write it out for everyone's benefit.

I'll look forward to it - if for no other reason than that the recently-released Scion: Dragon and Scion: Masks of the Mythos have given RanmaBushiko and I ideas, respectively, that would really be ridiculous . . . No matter how much we hate 2E mechanics.

(To wit: RB noted how close Erik came to legitimately being an Heir - read: "Scion" - of Fafnir, and the Mythos book fits the "Foreigner/SI-as-alien" vibe I've been setting up . . . Heck, I could legitimately do Summer BB as a Scion of Pele or Nyarlthotep, now - and that's REALLY ridiculous . . .!)

[Xamusel]

Okay, Kieran, before things go out of whack in regard to how I'm supposed to share my idea... I need some clarification from you. How would an SI in this setting work all the way through? I mean, you mentioned that an SI would have the ability to make a mind-reader's head explode, but what else is there to deal with?

Also, when you mention that you need a new set of circumstances for the Holy Grail War in Fuyuki, what are you aiming for? Do you still want the 4th to happen as Urobuchi described it? What exactly are you aiming for? This is all contingent on how I proceed with the idea.

[Kieran]

Apologies for the delay - it's been a miserable weekend . . .

Okay, Kieran, before things go out of whack in regard to how I'm supposed to share my idea... I need some clarification from you. How would an SI in this setting work all the way through? I mean, you mentioned that an SI would have the ability to make a mind-reader's head explode, but what else is there to deal with?

I've basically been looking at SIs conceptually - and I'll try to explain what I mean by that . . .


The TYPE-MOON world, as with many others, is fictional to us, if obviously very real to them. And while on one level, we and its inhabitants are both mortal humans, on another, there's about as much relation between us as there is between a person and a drawing of a person - literally, if you're using the anime as a comparison. Those extra dimensions give SIs a weight - physically, and in some senses literally - that can alter things around them, and the more metaphysical you go, the worse the effects get. After all, in a very real sense, fiction only has as much soul, and effect on us, as we allow it to. Even worse, to some extent, is that fact that while none of us are Nasu, Urobochi, Takeuchi, et al, any one of us could, in theory, becoming employed by TYPE-MOON and have a hand in shaping that universe directly - or, from another perspective, every SI is, potentially, the Root as Nasuverse mechanics sees it - or at least a part of it.

As such, the World's best interpretation of them is as something akin to an Outer God, or even a (potential) Fantasy Tree - either of which would normally call down all forms of Hell as Gaia, the Counter Force, and everything else tries their damnedest to GET RID OF THE STUPIDLY-DANGEROUS EXISTENTIAL THREAT - but by taking on an existence (again, akin) to a Daemon (perhaps even a True Daemon), the World is at least willing to dial down to urgency, because it's now something it can comprehend.

For example, Frid was a druid and a werewolf - maybe not of a type the World knew, in either case, but it understood the concepts, and even as alien as they were, they had rules and limits that were sharply defined. More than that, those rules and limtis meant that, if necessary, there were A LOT of things available that could neutralise him - most Dead Apostles, several magi, Counter Guardians, etc., etc.

Nowadays, he's a Lunar Exalt - which has a number of different potentials that make him even more dangerous, in some ways . . . But the systems he operates under are even closer to what the Nasuverse uses (Exalted being, among other things, anime-inspired in its design) - so in terms of his powers, the World is willing to go, "OK, I can see how that's supposed to work, or might work, so I'll allow it." And again, there are ways and means to counter him, if and when he ever poses a genuine threat.

Just by existing, SIs can and do alter things - so the first and foremost question you need to answer is, "Why hasn't Fuyuki, Misaki, or wherever your SI shows up been wiped off the map to get rid of them . . .?"

(In Frid's case, the aforementioned limitations, and the fact that he actually A), spends as little time on Nasuverse Earth as possible, as part of B), doing his best not to attract attention. There are any number of beings that can and would try to use him - and a good number of them might succeed.)



As a side note, if he showed up as himself, with no powers whatsoever . . .? I consider the omniverse to have 12 dimensions, which can be basically boiled down to, "How many of the following does the medium have: the four core dimensions (length, width, height, time), the five senses, motion (i.e, do things move on-screen? Does everything, or just a few things?), volition - do things happen on their own, do they need to be observed in order to happen (like reading the book or watching the movie) or do they need outside input (which would actually rate as a negative score), and realism (live-action versus animated, for example)?" Depending on if you count the soul as a separate dimension in itself, like motion (as opposed to an aspect of volition), that makes 13.

The Nasuverse hovers between what I consider to be a 3 - 4 on the dimensional scale, depending on your point of ingress. Visual novels and video games have 2.5-D graphics, have sights and sounds, and some elements of motion (so a .5 there), but no volition (-1), making it a 4. Light novels have 2-D illustrations (mostly non-colour, so in theory that's a .5 on sight), but need to be read, and are mostly text - at best, it's a 3.

A direct translation of a human from our world to theirs would see you be 3 or 4 times denser, physically; with all the problems that entails. Sure, you're 6 - 8 times stronger than you normally would be, and take one-third to one-quarter the damage . . . But you also only get about one-third to one-quarter the sensation from your sense of touch, the air is basically that much thinner, and your nutritional needs are equally multiplied. You'll soon starve to death or dehydrate, assuming you don't die of oxygen deprivation, or the sheer mass of yourself doesn't crush you . . .

Use magecraft to help yourself, you say? Well, as much density as your body has, your soul is exponentially so - you are literally the realest thing in this universe, more or less. Most stuff that can't penetrate A-rank Magic Resistance isn't going to touch you.

But don't worry - it might take three or four more shots than normal, but a bullet can still put you out of your misery . . .

Also, when you mention that you need a new set of circumstances for the Holy Grail War in Fuyuki, what are you aiming for? Do you still want the 4th to happen as Urobuchi described it? What exactly are you aiming for? This is all contingent on how I proceed with the idea.

Assume the Fourth occurred as written. As to the Fifth . . . Well, A Royal Mess will hopefully answer that (eventually . . .).

[Arbitrarity]

As a side note, if he showed up as himself, with no powers whatsoever . . .? I consider the omniverse to have 12 dimensions, which can be basically boiled down to, "How many of the following does the medium have: the four core dimensions (length, width, height, time), the five senses, motion (i.e, do things move on-screen? Does everything, or just a few things?), volition - do things happen on their own, do they need to be observed in order to happen (like reading the book or watching the movie) or do they need outside input (which would actually rate as a negative score), and realism (live-action versus animated, for example)?" Depending on if you count the soul as a separate dimension in itself, like motion (as opposed to an aspect of volition), that makes 13.

The Nasuverse hovers between what I consider to be a 3 - 4 on the dimensional scale, depending on your point of ingress. Visual novels and video games have 2.5-D graphics, have sights and sounds, and some elements of motion (so a .5 there), but no volition (-1), making it a 4. Light novels have 2-D illustrations (mostly non-colour, so in theory that's a .5 on sight), but need to be read, and are mostly text - at best, it's a 3.

A direct translation of a human from our world to theirs would see you be 3 or 4 times denser, physically; with all the problems that entails. Sure, you're 6 - 8 times stronger than you normally would be, and take one-third to one-quarter the damage . . . But you also only get about one-third to one-quarter the sensation from your sense of touch, the air is basically that much thinner, and your nutritional needs are equally multiplied. You'll soon starve to death or dehydrate, assuming you don't die of oxygen deprivation, or the sheer mass of yourself doesn't crush you . . .

Semantic quibble; I'm not entirely sure I agree with describing some of the more abstract things (senses, volition, etc) as dimensions, though there's probably an appropriate word I'm not thinking of. I've read Flatland, and extra spatial/temporal dimensions proper are hard to imagine or describe. 5D Chess with Multiverse Time Travel is about as close as I can think of.

A difference I would consider a "conceptual dimension" would be something like the difference between character and reader (or writer), between piece and player. That's more absolute, but also harder to quantify. It's not really meaningful to "directly translate" a player into a game. They're either acting as a piece, or playing the game at the layer above. The player is only as affected by the game as they choose to acknowledge, and can make whatever changes are agreed to. The difference between being the Root and not.
The description of the World interpreting that as a Fantasy Tree, Outer God, or Daemon seems pretty accurate. Godafrid as Godafrid is you stuffing yourself into a conceptual straitjacket to play within the rules.

What you're describing sounds more like a measure of fidelity, how life-like the world is, which is why you can have negatives, fractions, etc. I can see why being able to perceive (scent/sound/taste/free will) would give extra existential weight, and a world without them may be ephemeral to an outsider. Whether that translates to literal density, or something more abstract, seems up to interpretation. Interacting with such a world, without having an avatar or piece, might be difficult. It would be hard to convince me that a text prompt, or a dream, could kill me, but at the same time, they can have internal logic that I can't just will away, and my avenues for interacting with them are limited.

The effects of introducing concepts that don't exist in a world could be quite disruptive. Most of the time, the SI's internal experience doesn't intrude on the outside world, but mind-reading and prophecy are definitely two places where Things that Must Not Be Seen would intrude on the world. I'm trying to imagine an analogous thing with smell in a world without smell, and it's less impressive, but still could have Lovecraftian effects, I guess.

Assume the Fourth occurred as written. As to the Fifth . . . Well, A Royal Mess will hopefully answer that (eventually . . .).

That does limit when Zelretch is resolving the paradox to presumably after the Fourth. Makes sense, it avoids having too much timeline drift from the expected Stay/Night setting. That could be hard to explain.

[Kieran]

Semantic quibble; I'm not entirely sure I agree with describing some of the more abstract things (senses, volition, etc) as dimensions, though there's probably an appropriate word I'm not thinking of.

Possibly . . .

I've read Flatland, and extra spatial/temporal dimensions proper are hard to imagine or describe.

. . . But this. ^ It's the best I can do, since the system relies on how many interactive elements exist vis a vis OUR world. I mean, obviously those senses exist within the context of the work itself, but we have no frame of reference for them, and vice-versa; so extra "dimensions" in the best I can do. The main takeaway is meant to be that the more of them a particular setting has for us to interact with, the less alien we are to it. In that sense, theatre productions are the nearest to "normal" that there is; they're so close to our frame of reference that we'd be less than double density (television series and movies being next-closest at fully double).

A difference I would consider a "conceptual dimension" would be something like the difference between character and reader (or writer), between piece and player. That's more absolute, but also harder to quantify. It's not really meaningful to "directly translate" a player into a game. They're either acting as a piece, or playing the game at the layer above. The player is only as affected by the game as they choose to acknowledge, and can make whatever changes are agreed to. The difference between being the Root and not.
The description of the World interpreting that as a Fantasy Tree, Outer God, or Daemon seems pretty accurate. Godafrid as Godafrid is you stuffing yourself into a conceptual straitjacket to play within the rules.

Quite. It's also why SIs are more protected against esoteric effects than straight mundane forces (kinetic impacts, fire, etc.) - the more "meta" an element, the easier it is to ignore, because SIs are essentially the meta.

What you're describing sounds more like a measure of fidelity, how life-like the world is, which is why you can have negatives, fractions, etc. I can see why being able to perceive (scent/sound/taste/free will) would give extra existential weight, and a world without them may be ephemeral to an outsider. Whether that translates to literal density, or something more abstract, seems up to interpretation. Interacting with such a world, without having an avatar or piece, might be difficult. It would be hard to convince me that a text prompt, or a dream, could kill me, but at the same time, they can have internal logic that I can't just will away, and my avenues for interacting with them are limited.

You aren't wrong - this is just the best way I've come up with to quantify that.

The effects of introducing concepts that don't exist in a world could be quite disruptive. Most of the time, the SI's internal experience doesn't intrude on the outside world, but mind-reading and prophecy are definitely two places where Things that Must Not Be Seen would intrude on the world. I'm trying to imagine an analogous thing with smell in a world without smell, and it's less impressive, but still could have Lovecraftian effects, I guess.

Try "The Colour Out of Space," I think - it seems to be a good idea of what happens when things that don't translate well appear.

That does limit when Zelretch is resolving the paradox to presumably after the Fourth. Makes sense, it avoids having too much timeline drift from the expected Stay/Night setting. That could be hard to explain.

Precisely - and this is already tricky enough . . . Especially as the official timeline of Servant summoning for the Fifth War (which was apparently worked out here - don't I feel idiotic for never noticing!) means I only have the Assassin slot to play with . . .


Also, according to same, apparently Fate/stay night can only actually have taken place in 2008, going by the dates and lunar charts it uses, despite being "officially" in 2004; there's a complication I didn't need . . .

[Kieran]

So, as I continue plotting out A Royal Mess (writing is slow - stupid wrist - but it is happening), I find it's time to talk about the Tsukihime-shaped hole in the proverbial room . . .


They're an established part of the Works, but how has always been a bit ambiguous. A decade-plus or so back when I started this concept, I initially was unaware of the "Fate/Tsukihime divergent worlds" canon (things like Carnival Phantasm, the magus/Dead Apostle interactions of Melty Blood, and cameos in Fate/EXTRA did not help), and assumed they were simply parts of the same world - the fact that early assertions back then were that the events of the games took place at the same time simply reinforced the idea. As such, initially the Works' base simply connected the two houses/cities via Doors.. When I was aware of the divergences, I simply expanded that to imply that the worlds were linked - which became a necessity to help explain the (presumed) four-year gap (actually an eight-year gap, it seems) between the events of the two games . . .

But recent and current developments have thrown that into a bit of a muddle - a lot of new Fate lore from various games, to begin with, but most specifically, the Tsukihime remake.

Again, the Works as a concept was started over a decade ago, and the mythical "Tsukihime remake" was just that; a project stuck in development hell, if it wasn't simply an outright joke of Nasu's used to troll fans; much like the still-equally-mythical Tsukihime 2 (and its "Altrouge Route"). Now that it does exist, however - and is shown to be more or less canon to F/GO (taking place in 2014, to boot!) . . .

As with the original, there's a time discrepancy between it and Fate; it takes place in 2014 to the latter's 2008. That makes an F/GO crossover easy, but not so much this setup - on the other hand, I'm already handwaving a fair bit thanks to Frid's presence causing ripples (to say nothing of the inclusion of the Persona universe), so maybe it might not matter . . .? The fact that it's an incomplete game - two-thirds incomplete, since Sacchin is supposedly finally getting her route in Red Garden along with the Far Side heroines - doesn't help, either.

However . . . However, Souya, the remake's replacement for Misaki Town, is reportedly placed in the Tokyo Metropolitan Area/Greater Tokyo Area, which is more-or-less the setting of Persona 5 - so if there's ever a time for the cast to appear, it's within the context of A Royal Mess. In point of fact, I had planned to show/flashback the Works' formation - specifically, the Tohno faction joining - as part of the story, but this adds a potential wrinkle that make it worth discussing.

Obviously, even if I do use the Remake cast, there are issues: the story isn't finished (and things like the Mahoyo release may add further wrinkles to the plot, because it might've been updated, as well), and Ciel's notable absence from the Works to date makes it worse, since she's literally half of the existing story - but regardless, this is when the decision has to be made, while I still have enough flex in the plot to work with to weave it in without needing to resort to something ridiculous.


. . . So, thoughts?

[Arbitrarity]

Interesting. Most fanfiction is a product of its time; you have to read Trinity Prelude knowing it was before Fate/Apocrypha existed, for example. This is interesting in a living setting, since the Works has been ongoing for so long that canon is moving.

If there was a time to update things, a story where we're returning to the Works' origin is a good opportunity. I'm not entirely sure how you're picturing reconciling it, though. I may be thinking of things that qualify as ridiculous right now, like eventually-stable paradox. You'd probably be limited in how much you could integrate with so much still up in the air, though.

At the same time, I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping the cast as it is Since I'm not writing within it, I'm not strongly opinionated about which characters are available; other people may have more relevant opinions.

[Kieran]

Interesting. Most fanfiction is a product of its time; you have to read Trinity Prelude knowing it was before Fate/Apocrypha existed, for example. This is interesting in a living setting, since the Works has been ongoing for so long that canon is moving.

Yeah - and while most-slash-all of the various Fate updates can be largely ignored, given that this is focussed on the original game/story, Tsukihime material is far more limited. An update to its canon - and not through a licensee, like Delight Works (or whoever's running things now), A-1 Pictures, or a contracted LN author, but from TYPE-MOON itself - isn't something that really should be dismissed out of hand.

If there was a time to update things, a story where we're returning to the Works' origin is a good opportunity.

My thinking precisely.

I'm not entirely sure how you're picturing reconciling it, though. I may be thinking of things that qualify as ridiculous right now, like eventually-stable paradox. You'd probably be limited in how much you could integrate with so much still up in the air, though.

Essentially, at this point, I don't think anything's been said or done that explicitly calls out the Tohno faction as coming from either the original or the remake; not in any work that still exists, at least. The closest thing I can think of is maybe referencing Michelle Ruff as Arcueid's English voice actress - but as the remake hasn't been dubbed, there's no reason that can't still apply.

(And really, she and Ciel were the only ones I really focussed on, back when - or I absolutely would've written a gag somewhere down the line about Hisui sounding like Arturia . . . )

As such, I can start to try to weave in the Remake plot as part of the story, if that's the version of the characters preferred by people - but if so, it's something I need to start thinking about now. If not, then I stick with the original timeline cast, and see how things go from there. Hence, my asking - as this was designed as a community setting, it makes sense to do so, right?

At the same time, I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping the cast as it is Since I'm not writing within it, I'm not strongly opinionated about which characters are available; other people may have more relevant opinions.

I guess we'll wait and see - and it's good to know yours, regardless. Thank you.

[Xamusel]

Wait... doesn't pureauthor have a story set in the Grail Works with the Tohno side of the operations as the protagonists?

[Kieran]

Wait... doesn't pureauthor have a story set in the Grail Works with the Tohno side of the operations as the protagonists?

Yes, but I don't recall anything in his story that would definitively say that they're from the original Tsukihime setting, rather than the remake, so . . . *Shrugs*

[Xamusel]

Point made. I'll see what I can do on my end, if it comes down to that, anyway.

[Kieran]

And stuff like this does not help . . .

[hatori]

Melty blood on the whole can be taken as a " alternate universe" sort of version of Tsukihime, the Type Lumina game itself is adding in FGO characters thanks to that percieved notion that since MB is not necessarily canon, they can just add FGO in and be done with it.

regarding Tsukihime 2.. since the game is still 2/3rds incomplete after almost 2 decades of fan-demand, I'd say just leave it be for the time being and focus more on the existing tsukihime canon first.
After all, tsukihime 2 is technically just a remake but adding in sacchin's route (finally)

[Xamusel]

I thought Tsukihime 2 was the one about the half-Dead Apostle going on a vampire slaying adventure?

[Vididii]

>Implying Type Lumina is not the Strange/Fake universe

[Kieran]

I thought Tsukihime 2 was the one about the half-Dead Apostle going on a vampire slaying adventure?

So did I, honestly . . .


And yes, there's a certain value in ignoring things; but the setting was meant to cater to and encourage all TYPE-MOON fans, which means leaving as many character options open as possible - of course, that means they have to make sense, as well, which is where the headaches start . . .

Setting it in a "Strange/fake" universe, as I have, helps, because it draws on the original, Prototype, and elements of both Tsukihime (the threat of ORT, specifically) and being canonical to F/GO as well at the same time - but it does still impose limits. Such as, for example, the question of who and what Sion (or Sialim) is . . .

[Xamusel]

Okay... strangely enough, I think I have an idea for my first actual story in the Grail Works universe, if you guys think it fits. Sometime after the events of Fate/Anarchy, a fighting game is about to reach its conclusion, while Shirou finds himself outside of Avalon during the final round of the game. It could be because he's going to class at the time, but he soon encounters a man who addresses himself as Geats... Kamen Rider Geats. Cue the world resetting as of the climax of Episode 1 of Geats... and Shirou gets selected to be a Kamen Rider himself.

Oh, and Ilya and the rest are cut off from Shirou during this story until the last chapter or so. I haven't fully decided on that yet.