The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[Kieran]

Oh, dear... been so long since we last saw anything about this plotline, Kieran.

Whereas, bizarrely, I've had some variation of this snippet planned since I posted the last one - so I figured, in lieu of anything else, I might as well do it now . . .

By the way, I saw the new Turtles movie last night. I'm suitably impressed, guys.

I'm wary of that one - I'm not really a fan of Seth Rogan's style of humour, and I know he's heavily involved. More, the voices the Turtles use seem more appropriate to Peanuts characters than the TMNT. I'm not sure I could tolerate it long enough to enjoy the movie even if it was good.

Art style's kind of cool, though, if obviously derivative.

[Kieran]

And with Elizabeth Cinderella's release in North America, and particularly the line of dialogue below, that joked-about conflict takes one step closer to being a reality . . .

"Heh. I'm more beautiful than all the other Elisabeths.
Huh? The other Elisas all said the same thing?
...Does that mean the great Elisabethian War is about to begin...?"

[Xamusel]

LOL!! XD I can see it now.

[Kieran]

LOL!! XD I can see it now.

And between male and female Hakuno, male and female Ritsuka, Frid and Meltryllis (who was Elizabeth's Master at one point), there are almost enough Masters for the War, too . . .

[Xamusel]

Get Shiki as the last Master in this War. I'll leave it up to you to decide which one I mean.

[Kieran]

Get Shiki as the last Master in this War. I'll leave it up to you to decide which one I mean.

You are an evil, evil man . . .

[Xamusel]

You are an evil, evil man . . .

Care to guess who I meant by Shiki?

[Kieran]

Care to guess who I meant by Shiki?

It almost wouldn't matter, would it . . .?

[Xamusel]

I meant Ryougi.

[Kieran]

And on an entirely different note - hence the separate post, and that I didn't want to overtake the Royal Mess thread on something this speculative - I've begun tentatively plotting the "Fate/Samurai Remnant arc." I do think it's a good idea, for the reasons I mentioned prior (even though it will involve 20+ hours of sitting at a computer screen for research before I can write a word), but even at this early stage of the game, I have ideas and issues regarding my potential approach:

1) Should Frid replace Iori Miyamoto?

In some ways, this makes sense; Iori is the player character, and Frid IS a player - ergo, it's the natural state. If this is a "bad ending" timeline (which I know exists, even if I don't know the details yet), it's even more sensible. Even with what little I know, however, Iori is SO intrinsic to what happens that it would almost require rewriting EVERYTHING from scratch - and it might be interesting to see him interact with "the main character," anyway. Frid would certainly be wondering who is on the other end . . .

This would also predispose Frid, for better or worse, for the War's "Saber" slot - which Saber is up for questioning.


2) Should Frid replace another Master?

Offhand, if this is the case, the Association magus, Dorothea Coyett, is the easiest/most obvious. Again, it makes a certain degree of sense; Nasu wanted a Western magus included in the Waxing Moon Ritual, and Frid would (kind of) qualify. Depending on her role (and I've heard some things), this could require a bit of rewriting, or a LOT - he IS an arachnophobe, so that wouldn't change, and if he keeps the "Glam Sight" of the magus whose identity he's taken, Frid actually could potentially do a lot of what I've been told she does . . .

This also predisposes him the Ritual's "Assassin" slot - again, which one is up for questioning.

. . . And all that said, there are other appealing options . . .


3) Should he be entirely an independent?

It's not like the game is lacking in "Rogue Servants" to contract; or would notice one more, probably . . .

[Arbitrarity]

That's a pretty wide-perspective question, dang.

1) I don't feel like Godafrid should replace Iori. It feels too-close to the spotlight, when his goal is tangential to the Waxing Moon ritual (though depending on your implementation, that may not be true). Godafrid summoning Nero is entirely too on-the-nose. Caesar, Ibuki, Saber Musashi, or Jason seem like possibly-appropriate Sabers.
I also definitely agree Godafrid interacting with a "main character" could be very entertaining.

2) There's a cute symmetry available; you could have Iori summon a Nero and Godafrid summon the Berserker, so they each have a strong connection to the other's Servant (I do not know how much this would warp the plot, but probably tolerably). Dorothea's position definitely seems the most natural replacement though; it keeps Frid's assumed identity pretty similar, and I think Glam Sight could be justifiable (depending on what you do with his powers, though you have some leeway depending on how he ends up in world). Assassin brings to mind MHX (though that really doesn't fit the setting well), some of the various ninjas (Chiyome/Danzo/Kotarou), Izo (though he is from the future), or any of the Hassan you're fond of.

3) Rogue is definitely valid and probably the simplest solution. It's a good choice if you intend finding Nero to be on the periphery of the War, want an easy justification to ally with Iori, or just want to avoid other complexities.

[Kieran]

That's a pretty wide-perspective question, dang.

Yes - unfortunately, it kind of has to be, because it'll determine my approach to the whole idea . . . Though I'm aware I'm asking a lot, especially when I've barely started looking into what-all the story entails in its "normal" circumstances . . .

1) I don't feel like Godafrid should replace Iori. It feels too-close to the spotlight, when his goal is tangential to the Waxing Moon ritual (though depending on your implementation, that may not be true).

This is true, hence my making it a question rather than an assumption - though there would have been an irony in replacing Iori, as it's a "Holy Grail War" he knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about . . .

Godafrid summoning Nero is entirely too on-the-nose.

No - if anything, he'd be looking for Nero . . . Whatever version of her wound up there, anyway.

Caesar, Ibuki, Saber Musashi, or Jason seem like possibly-appropriate Sabers.

In the event he somehow summoned the latter, Frid would use his Command Seals to order Jason to suicide - in NO way, shape or form does he want to associate or be associated with The Golden Shinji.

. . . In the event Frid did get a Saber, I was tempted to go for Okita - but her stats are less-than-ideal. Okita Alter might actually make sense, though, given what I know of the plot so far . . .

Otherwise, Oei's teenaged self has her temptations, too. Or Suzuka Gozen, really.

I also definitely agree Godafrid interacting with a "main character" could be very entertaining.

Half the reason to do it.

2) There's a cute symmetry available; you could have Iori summon a Nero and Godafrid summon the Berserker, so they each have a strong connection to the other's Servant (I do not know how much this would warp the plot, but probably tolerably).

Less than you might think, as Berserker's Master kind of depends on her . . . Though given that Rogue Berserker dotes on her, as well, maybe not as much as I think . . .? Still, Berserker and her Master play the expository role in the game, apparently; it might cause issues if I disrupt that, though I probably can work around it . . . Hell, Frid could probably fake the role well enough, if it came to it.


And while I don't yet know why Iori summoned THAT Saber (beyond the unwritten rule of "a protagonist character always summons an Arturia-lookalike Saber in a Fate work), instead of his father/master (whether F/GO's Musashi or the "Proper Human History" one we've only heard about), I do know that Saber's true identity is integral to the plot (as it almost always is. following the aforementioned rules) . . .

So it's probably a bad idea to change that, either, unless I want to rip the whole thing apart.

Dorothea's position definitely seems the most natural replacement though; it keeps Frid's assumed identity pretty similar, and I think Glam Sight could be justifiable (depending on what you do with his powers, though you have some leeway depending on how he ends up in world).

Yes - though from the look of it, Caster and possibly Berserker's Masters are the only two I can't/shouldn't replace, due to their Servants' importance to the plot . . .

Assassin brings to mind MHX (though that really doesn't fit the setting well),

While it might be amusing to see her hunt down Saber as yet another type of "Saberface" Servant (and Lancer, of course), no - she's staying strictly in the Servantverse arc (and since Nero does exist there, more reason than ever to actually not make it a "noodle incident" arc - God help me) . . .

]some of the various ninjas (Chiyome/Danzo/Kotarou), Izo (though he is from the future), or any of the Hassan you're fond of.

I was tempted to try Osakabehime, but she'd be hard to motivate, and her habit of making a portmanteau of Japanese and English words would be hell to write. Also her stats are terrible for this kind of fight . . . Though given that she's actually still alive at this point in time, it's possible that that factor, plus being summoned in Japan, should give her a power boost . . .?

It doesn't help that apparently the game designers were going to use her, before deciding there were too many Japanese Servants already, and gave her planned role to Rogue Caster.

Beyond that, Nitocris might be fun; the swimsuit aspect is ridiculous, but like Oei, she's touched enough by the Mythos (and the Underworld) to resonate with Frid. And there are a couple of others who might be interesting and/or appropriate - Serenity, yes, but Shuten Doji, too.

3) Rogue is definitely valid and probably the simplest solution. It's a good choice if you intend finding Nero to be on the periphery of the War, want an easy justification to ally with Iori, or just want to avoid other complexities.

Yeah - which begs the question of using the existing Servants, or swapping one . . .

Minimising spoilers as best I can (mostly limiting myself to what you'll see in trailers), based on what little I know thus far, Rogue Saber is apparently there because Rider is (Counter Force, much?), Rogue Lancer is the franchise's favourite butt-monkey hound (though really, if I was going to use him, I'd prefer the Demi-Servant Rin version ), the Rogue Caster is Circe, which has potential, and the Rogue Rider is nope for two reasons. First, her abilities are apparently 100% non-combative (to the point where her stats are noted as being purely [I]cosmetic[/I) and second:

The unnecessary but obligatory cameo scene

Frid: ERIK! She's your wife and/or sister-in-law, YOU deal with her!

Of the actual Servants of the ritual, the only other one of note (to me, anyway) is Lancer, being Jeanne Alter, somehow - given Frid's "recent" interactions with Jeanne/Laeticia . . .

(Though it's odd; given what little I know of her Master, if anybody was going to summon her - or Demon King Nobunaga, maybe - as an Avenger or a Berserker, or even just a Berserker in general, you would think it'd be him . . .)

[Arbitrarity]

No - if anything, he'd be looking for Nero . . . Whatever version of her wound up there, anyway.

I have no idea what I was thinking there, honestly, though I guess it could be relevant if you needed the Grail for some reason to recover the shard.

In the event he somehow summoned the latter, Frid would use his Command Seals to order Jason to suicide - in NO way, shape or form does he want to associate or be associated with The Golden Shinji.

Yeah that last one was very much "who's the absolute worst person I could give him" XD

. . . In the event Frid did get a Saber, I was tempted to go for Okita - but her stats are less-than-ideal. Okita Alter might actually make sense, though, given what I know of the plot so far . . .

Otherwise, Oei's teenaged self has her temptations, too. Or Suzuka Gozen, really.

Those are definitely fitting for the setting. As with Izo, note that Okita is also from the future, from the perspective of the Edo period.

Less than you might think, as Berserker's Master kind of depends on her . . . Though given that Rogue Berserker dotes on her, as well, maybe not as much as I think . . .? Still, Berserker and her Master play the expository role in the game, apparently; it might cause issues if I disrupt that, though I probably can work around it . . . Hell, Frid could probably fake the role well enough, if it came to it.

I had a vague inkling given who Berserker is, though depending on exactly what's being explained Godafrid may or may not slot into that role nicely.

And while I don't yet know why Iori summoned THAT Saber (beyond the unwritten rule of "a protagonist character always summons an Arturia-lookalike Saber in a Fate work), instead of his father/master (whether F/GO's Musashi or the "Proper Human History" one we've only heard about), I do know that Saber's true identity is integral to the plot (as it almost always is. following the aforementioned rules) . . .

So it's probably a bad idea to change that, either, unless I want to rip the whole thing apart.

Saber is the most plot-critical class, factual. I expect doing something like that would probably rip a good chunk of the later story apart, but it seemed like it might be relevant around when you might be diverging anyways.

I was tempted to try Osakabehime, but she'd be hard to motivate, and her habit of making a portmanteau of Japanese and English words would be hell to write. Also her stats are terrible for this kind of fight . . . Though given that she's actually still alive at this point in time, it's possible that that factor, plus being summoned in Japan, should give her a power boost . . .?

It doesn't help that apparently the game designers were going to use her, before deciding there were too many Japanese Servants already, and gave her planned role to Rogue Caster.

A lot of the Servants already probably benefit from fame boosts as Japanese Servants, so I doubt it would be outstanding for Okki.

Beyond that, Nitocris might be fun; the swimsuit aspect is ridiculous, but like Oei, she's touched enough by the Mythos (and the Underworld) to resonate with Frid. And there are a couple of others who might be interesting and/or appropriate - Serenity, yes, but Shuten Doji, too.

Can't believe I remembered Ibuki and forgot Shuten here, sad. Summer Nitocris didn't come to mind at all, but that's a pretty good argument.

Yeah - which begs the question of using the existing Servants, or swapping one . . .

Really depends on what you're doing with Godafrid. I was sort of assuming he's acting as an independent (possible Master) in a role kind of similar to another Rogue Servant. Given that I was expecting he would be making alliances, so might not need to have a partner Servant (and justifying him summoning is slightly harder)

[Kieran]

I have no idea what I was thinking there, honestly, though I guess it could be relevant if you needed the Grail for some reason to recover the shard.

Possible, I suppose - I AM still working out all the details . . .

Yeah that last one was very much "who's the absolute worst person I could give him" XD

I can't blame you - I do that for fun, as well.

Those are definitely fitting for the setting. As with Izo, note that Okita is also from the future, from the perspective of the Edo period.

I'm reliably informed that's not going to be a problem.

I had a vague inkling given who Berserker is, though depending on exactly what's being explained Godafrid may or may not slot into that role nicely.

Yes - so I suppose it's possible, but there's no particular reason for Frid to summon Musashi, and it seems like a loss to butterfly that away . . . But again, still going through the game itself, so maybe there's a reason she showed up in the class she did, with who she did - again, work-in-progress.

Saber is the most plot-critical class, factual. I expect doing something like that would probably rip a good chunk of the later story apart, but it seemed like it might be relevant around when you might be diverging anyways.

This is fair.

A lot of the Servants already probably benefit from fame boosts as Japanese Servants, so I doubt it would be outstanding for Okki.

Yeah, I was hoping I could handwave it by possessing her living self for a double boost.

Can't believe I remembered Ibuki and forgot Shuten here, sad.

If nothing else, they can get drunk together (something Frid will doubtless be tempted to do) . . .

Summer Nitocris didn't come to mind at all, but that's a pretty good argument.

Amusingly, her Summer self has the least to do with the Mythos; the whole bit with her mirror came from that. Regardless, I do like her, in any incarnation.

Really depends on what you're doing with Godafrid. I was sort of assuming he's acting as an independent (possible Master) in a role kind of similar to another Rogue Servant. Given that I was expecting he would be making alliances, so might not need to have a partner Servant (and justifying him summoning is slightly harder)

Right now, aside from "locate Aestus Estus fragment/Nero incarnation," the only thought I've had regarding the plot is "Ruler summons Frid because A), Nero is his problem, and B), Ruler is bored." Much like Sieg before him, I expect Frid would be under Ruler's protection . . . But that's dubious, at best, because this one is WAAAAY less conscientious than Jeanne. And until I learn more of Samurai Remnant's plot, I'm reluctant to push further, even to the point of deciding which Nero I'm working with . . .

Still, early days yet.

[Kieran]

Apologies for the delay - a few appliance issues at home have been distracting, and the fact that my muse has apparently decided she works the midnight shift (and I mean that literally) hasn't helped . . .

But a thought has occurred to me that you might get a kick out of in the meantime: given what I have to hand, and the things Frid has on hand, I could actually see this as a potential future path for him:


Power Ranger Frid: I need Idolzord Power, NOW!

Whatever villain he's fighting: "Idolzord . . .?" What the heck is that supposed to be . . .?





. . . Granted, getting her to Zord size might take a bit of handwaving (it's Mark II who has the kaiju-sized shell), but there are several examples of human-sized fighters growing to Zord size in-universe, so it's not impossible.

(And I think she absolutely would go for this; her profile outright says that she wishes theme music played while firing off her Noble Phantasm - besides, they have a shared love of overkill . . .)

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, that would be entirely in-character for Mecha-Eli. She literally refers to Guda as "Pilot" (candidate); having a giant Zord-size suit running the human-sized platform is reasonable, though you'd probably need some loose justification for the power-level. Probably would need to be a Noble Phantasm. Certainly, in Fate/Anarchy it would have fit (Counter Force boost due to the general thinning of boundaries, +indirect fame bonus from Eric being around). If the setting supports Zords/giant mecha, that's a pretty good step.

Since IIRC she was the original compatibility summon, there's probably some loose argument to be made that Godafrid should summon the same Mecha-Eli with perks she would have had, but I still wouldn't want to try and use that argument in a non-fitting setting.

[Kieran]

Yeah, that would be entirely in-character for Mecha-Eli. She literally refers to Guda as "Pilot" (candidate); having a giant Zord-size suit running the human-sized platform is reasonable, though you'd probably need some loose justification for the power-level. Probably would need to be a Noble Phantasm.

Likely, she'd need a Grid power boost from her bonded Ranger (pilot); and naturally, she'd never be one herself, because a Ranger suit would diminish her steel beauty . . .

But between entities like Auric the Conqueror, Ninjor, and Robo Knight, there's ample examples of someone going from human-sized to Zord-sized; and also examples of being summoned from "hiding places" (i.e., Castle Csejte -), so she wouldn't even have to leave her domain . . .

And it's a way for her to feel rightfully superior: whereas the Mark II could only manage it by constructing an outer shell that would drain her Master to death (or so Mk. II claims), she'd be able to do so easily ("Superior Model," her perfect steel posterior . . . ).

And best of all, being Zord-sized gives her a perfect excuse opportunity to employ her unused Noble Phantasm, since she'll finally be to scale for it:

"One Hundred Consecutive Shots of Magus: EX

A terrifyingly wicked "party" that unleashes the Mecha Eli-chans from the mass production line to attack an enemy.
And at the end, one hundred Mecha Eli-chans combine to turn into a giant spear, and terrible...terrible things happen to the enemy.
In a different world, this is called "Superhuman Sister's Alliance."
Not utilized in FGO."

Certainly, in Fate/Anarchy it would have fit (Counter Force boost due to the general thinning of boundaries, +indirect fame bonus from Eric being around). If the setting supports Zords/giant mecha, that's a pretty good step.

I thought so.

Since IIRC she was the original compatibility summon, there's probably some loose argument to be made that Godafrid should summon the same Mecha-Eli with perks she would have had, but I still wouldn't want to try and use that argument in a non-fitting setting.

Well, we do know that time travel is (voluntarily or not) involved in Frid's shenanigans . . .

[Kieran]

. . . So, on something of a side note (or preparation for the future; haven't quite decided which) . . .

It's seeming like I may need to "un-noodle" my planned Noodle Incident - meaning, "the Servant Universe Interlude" involving MHX. You've already had a hint of that, at least, with the cameo of Space Ishtar (well, Ashtart, to be specific). There are two ways (or rather, two people) I can use to bring this to fruition:

Would you prefer to see Frid (and/or the Works in general) dealing with Ashtart, or with Ishtarin - or should I try and aim for both . . .?

[Arbitrarity]

Ishtar Ashtart off the table for the moment, since that's a Saber Wars II thing (or a "both" thing).

Hm. If we're un-noodling the incident, we presumably have to be working with MHX, and be in conflict with the Dark Rounds, at minimum. I don't really recall the relationship between Dark Rounds and Space Shinkageryu, implying it might make more sense if he's primarily dealing with Ishtarin, since she's more independent, and thus easier to drag into conflicts.
Though at the same time, running around the universe largely with Ishtarin and MHX was most of the bulk of Saber Wars II, so working somewhat with Ashtart could be interesting. It would lean into how MHX recognizes Frid for his craftiness if he's working with her enemies. Feels like a less direct approach though.

[Kieran]

Ishtar Ashtart off the table for the moment, since that's a Saber Wars II thing (or a "both" thing).

A bit of that, a bit of being less fond of her design than the other two; and if Ashtart's horns make it hard for her to pass in a "normal" world, Ishtar Ashtart is ridiculously difficult . . .

Hm. If we're un-noodling the incident, we presumably have to be working with MHX, and be in conflict with the Dark Rounds, at minimum. I don't really recall the relationship between Dark Rounds and Space Shinkageryu, implying it might make more sense if he's primarily dealing with Ishtarin, since she's more independent, and thus easier to drag into conflicts.

That's part of my thinking, certainly. That the Space Shinkageryu didn't try moving until after the Dark Rounds were defeated indicates they're not quite on the latter's level - or deliberately keeping a low profile. In honesty, I'm still watching the event cutscenes as it is; four-and-a-half-hour blocks of time aren't easy to come by.

The image of Ishtarin mirroring Ashtart's kidnapping of Fujimaru in Saber Wars II's opening is kind of amusing to picture, though.

Though at the same time, running around the universe largely with Ishtarin and MHX was most of the bulk of Saber Wars II, so working somewhat with Ashtart could be interesting. It would lean into how MHX recognizes Frid for his craftiness if he's working with her enemies. Feels like a less direct approach though.

Also true . . .

I know that dealing with MHX (and probably X Alter) will likely involve spending some time at Cosmo Chaldea High; it's the easiest place for them to interact. I know Ishtarin goes to a (presumably) different school, whose name escapes me at the moment, where she's rivals with "Space Astraea," apparently. Beyond that, I have no solid plans right this second - though infiltrating Space Shinkageryu, or the Dark ROUNDS, would certainly make sense, based on how and why he reaches the Servant Universe in the first place (aside from closing that particular time loop, of course) . . .

More thought required, obviously, but I thought I'd check for opinions while I ruminate, as it's likely that whichever version of Space Ishtar he deals with is liable to be the one that he (and the Works) continue to deal with, so . . . *Shrugs*