The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[Kieran]

Okay... strangely enough, I think I have an idea for my first actual story in the Grail Works universe, if you guys think it fits. Sometime after the events of Fate/Anarchy, a fighting game is about to reach its conclusion, while Shirou finds himself outside of Avalon during the final round of the game.

Avalon is presently serving as the foundation for the island/castle the Works are based in; technically, he's "outside of Avalon" every time he's not there.

It could be because he's going to class at the time, but he soon encounters a man who addresses himself as Geats... Kamen Rider Geats. Cue the world resetting as of the climax of Episode 1 of Geats... and Shirou gets selected to be a Kamen Rider himself.

. . . So, this is meant to take place within the Works' universe? And the Rider System is compatible with the Foundation of the Human Order, and not hunted down by Executors, Burial Agents, Heroic Spirits, Counter Guardians, or random Dead Apostle Ancestors looking for a leg-up BECAUSE . . .?

Oh, and Ilya and the rest are cut off from Shirou during this story until the last chapter or so. I haven't fully decided on that yet.

So this is a different universe, then? Which they have trouble accessing because . . .? Keep in mind, the last time, it took the safeguards of the Moon Cell to make that happen.


. . . I really don't have any context here, sorry.

[Xamusel]

My apologies, Kieran... I only just today caught the first episode of Kamen Rider Geats, so that's the reason why I don't have much info for you.

[Kieran]

Speaking from experience, it's not generally a good idea to build an entire story on an unfinished series - much less just a single episode. I understand the impulse, absolutely, but it's likely to be a lot of headaches.

[Xamusel]

Have you finished writing the update for your current Grail Works story?

[Kieran]

Have you finished writing the update for your current Grail Works story?

Afraid not. Over the last couple of weeks, I've found myself A), distracted by other things (one of them being Trinity, the other being one of my last Christmas presents - finished that this weekend, at least), and B), at least partly stuck. I need to figure out what, specifically, happens to Kasumi Yoshizawa before I go any further, because it needs to be in place before I start moving the main plot . . .

[Arbitrarity]

and B), at least partly stuck. I need to figure out what, specifically, happens to Kasumi Yoshizawa before I go any further, because it needs to be in place before I start moving the main plot . . .

Mmmm, spicy. I'll try my usual speculation, though this is a bit more of an abstract problem. So my hints are...
Prologue, Kasumi's colors are blue and gold, she takes the elder/more confident role between the two sisters by the time we reach Sae's palace. It looks like most issues are resolved by that point; they appear aware Frid is alive and well.

In the story present, Sumire and Kasumi both have PTSD-related symptoms. Kasumi (Ch. 9) is hypervigilant, while Sumire is having nightmares (Ch. 7), and likely other symptoms. While Sumire is directly attending therapy, Kasumi is more treatment-avoidant.

P5R: speculation based on Kasumi/Maruki Confidant

Maruki in play with both girls in that state is ominous.
Sumire's trauma is similar to canon, and still focused on Kasumi. I'd interpret her nightmares as being of Kasumi's death, given who'd she'd apologize to, and the brief slice of her perspective in Ch. 3. So the first question is, what effect does Maruki have on Sumire?

My current thought is that Sumire's personality will be changed to be like her "perfect" sister - she won't actually think she is Kasumi, but she'll behave like the girl in the game (allowing the plot and Confidant to progress as normal). Which will make the difference in this case being how Kasumi herself reacts to the changes in her sister . . .

Having walked through the same reasoning, I'm inclined to agree about the effect. The mechanism of how this happens is the interesting part. Kasumi seems unaware of Sumire's rather bleak internal experience, so Sumire suddenly being "cured" would nominally be a positive thing for Kasumi. That can cut in the opposite way; it would be interesting to see how Kasumi would react to learning why Sumire feels like she does. Easiest way to do that is Maruki disclosing to parents.
So now we have fiercely-independent Kasumi struggling with that additional burden, which probably exacerbates her guilt, and seriously damages her self-image.

(Sumire was an exception to that, of course—after all, she was the elder sister; she was supposed to look after Sumire!)

I'd imagine by that point, Sumire would be "cured" by not remembering her previous mindset, which would make it impossible for Kasumi to talk about it (and be generally unsettling). That's enough stress on Kasumi that you can justify a lot. One answer is she ends up seeing Maruki, but you could play with that for a while. That also enables a Kasumi/Sumire role reversal, which seems elegant. Heck, Kasumi might deliberately perform worse. On Maruki, what effect would he have in that situation...?

Huh. Okay, the most interesting effect I think Maruki might have would be to erase Godafrid from Kasumi's recollection of events. It lets Kasumi feel better about protecting her sister, not feel guilty about Godafrid's death, etc. Feels like it could have fun consequences later on.

[Kieran]

P5R: speculation based on Kasumi/Maruki Confidant

Maruki in play with both girls in that state is ominous.
Sumire's trauma is similar to canon, and still focused on Kasumi. I'd interpret her nightmares as being of Kasumi's death, given who'd she'd apologize to, and the brief slice of her perspective in Ch. 3. So the first question is, what effect does Maruki have on Sumire?

Having walked through the same reasoning, I'm inclined to agree about the effect. The mechanism of how this happens is the interesting part. Kasumi seems unaware of Sumire's rather bleak internal experience, so Sumire suddenly being "cured" would nominally be a positive thing for Kasumi. That can cut in the opposite way; it would be interesting to see how Kasumi would react to learning why Sumire feels like she does. Easiest way to do that is Maruki disclosing to parents.
So now we have fiercely-independent Kasumi struggling with that additional burden, which probably exacerbates her guilt, and seriously damages her self-image.

I'd imagine by that point, Sumire would be "cured" by not remembering her previous mindset, which would make it impossible for Kasumi to talk about it (and be generally unsettling). That's enough stress on Kasumi that you can justify a lot. One answer is she ends up seeing Maruki, but you could play with that for a while. That also enables a Kasumi/Sumire role reversal, which seems elegant. Heck, Kasumi might deliberately perform worse. On Maruki, what effect would he have in that situation...?

Huh. Okay, the most interesting effect I think Maruki might have would be to erase Godafrid from Kasumi's recollection of events. It lets Kasumi feel better about protecting her sister, not feel guilty about Godafrid's death, etc. Feels like it could have fun consequences later on.

Some interesting suggestions - thank you.

[Arbitrarity]

Some interesting suggestions - thank you.

Seemed like the obvious progression from what you've established once I gave it some more thought (while maximizing suffering). The weird and subjective part is definitely figuring out what effects therapy has. I imagine you've already considered several similar alternatives. I definitely can't speak to wider thematic/plot considerations or why you might want certain developments, which might be trickier. Not really something I'm good at. Maximizing suffering, I can do :P

Now that I'm thinking about it more, you also could go full Palace on it, which would really take some extra planning, and has complex subjective advantages and disadvantages that are hard to assess.

[Kieran]

Yes - hence the delay. Because I need to consider all of this carefully . . . But it is frustrating; for you, I'm certain, as much as me.

[Xamusel]

So, Kieran, I hope this isn't a bad time to ask this... remember my idea for a crossover with Kamen Rider Geats in the Grail Works LTD universe? Well, I finished watching the first nine episodes, and they really gave me a fair bit of an idea to go with what I'm trying to do. As for the rest of the series, I'll make sure to watch and catch up as soon as I can, but I think I have a fair idea of what I want to do with that as a crossover.

Okay, so... the idea goes that Shirou is attending class one day, when a sudden incursion by the Jyamato happens at Homurahara Academy. The Moonlit World doesn't have any record of these beings because of the mass memory eraser that happens whenever the world gets reset, which conveniently prevents anyone outside of the Desire Grand Prix from doing anything to stop them any other way. With the Jyamato attacking Homurahara (and Fuyuki as a whole), Shirou has to make a stand to protect as many people as he can from the monsters, which ends up becoming a moot point when Kamen Rider Geats (no, not Ukiyo Ace from the show, a different person this time around) shows up and defeats all the monsters in the city and destroys the Final Boss-class enemy that would have killed the founder of the Grail Works LTD. This person, oddly enough, turns out to be Hisau Maiya, having survived her fate from Fate/Zero and gotten her desire to bring back Emiya Kiritsugu and Irisviel... while inserting herself into their relationship by accident... and with Shirou and Ilya being true siblings in this reset world.

Problem is, Shirou ends up becoming the new Geats and the Master of Saber in the Fifth Fuyuki Holy Grail War for the purposes of the reset world. Fortunately, he summons Arturia as she's supposed to be in the Grail Works. Unfortunately, the Grail is corrupted again and has the potential for summoning extra Servants. As such, Shirou has to face off against his Counter Guardian self again, while also taking care of when the Jyamato show up. He wins the Grail War, though he does find it odd that there's another entity inside the Grail, and it's not sharing space with Angra Mainyu. Instead, the entity is Nyarlathotep, who has no idea how come it got shunted over to here instead of where Philemon sealed him away at... and Nyarlathotep is more willing to grant Shirou's wish of stopping the Grail Wars to reform the Grail Works LTD.

Then Shirou wins the Desire Grand Prix and becomes a Desire Deity, which gives Shirou the ability to restore the employees of the Grail Works LTD to their true ability and memories both prior to and after the initial reset that happened because of the original Geats of this story. This means that Ilya now has a physical body to mess with, Irisviel is now the Grail Spirit because of the messing with the timeline, and everyone else in the Emiya household become agents of the Grail Works... along with Rin, Sakura, Medusa and Arturia as they canonically are for this universe. I'm not forgetting your SI, either, nor am I forgetting anyone else... right?

Oh, right, Nyarlathotep is here because of you writing the Persona 5 Royal crossover. That's practically the only reason why I'm including the Outer God and Philemon in this story.

[Kieran]

So, Kieran, I hope this isn't a bad time to ask this...

. . . Well, I only have part of a scene written this week, so why not . . .?

remember my idea for a crossover with Kamen Rider Geats in the Grail Works LTD universe?

Mostly . . .

Well, I finished watching the first nine episodes, and they really gave me a fair bit of an idea to go with what I'm trying to do. As for the rest of the series, I'll make sure to watch and catch up as soon as I can, but I think I have a fair idea of what I want to do with that as a crossover.

Okay, so... the idea goes that Shirou is attending class one day, when a sudden incursion by the Jyamato happens at Homurahara Academy. The Moonlit World doesn't have any record of these beings because of the mass memory eraser that happens whenever the world gets reset, which conveniently prevents anyone outside of the Desire Grand Prix from doing anything to stop them any other way. With the Jyamato attacking Homurahara (and Fuyuki as a whole), Shirou has to make a stand to protect as many people as he can from the monsters, which ends up becoming a moot point when Kamen Rider Geats (no, not Ukiyo Ace from the show, a different person this time around) shows up and defeats all the monsters in the city and destroys the Final Boss-class enemy that would have killed the founder of the Grail Works LTD. This person, oddly enough, turns out to be Hisau Maiya, having survived her fate from Fate/Zero and gotten her desire to bring back Emiya Kiritsugu and Irisviel... while inserting herself into their relationship by accident... and with Shirou and Ilya being true siblings in this reset world.

Problem is, Shirou ends up becoming the new Geats and the Master of Saber in the Fifth Fuyuki Holy Grail War for the purposes of the reset world. Fortunately, he summons Arturia as she's supposed to be in the Grail Works. Unfortunately, the Grail is corrupted again and has the potential for summoning extra Servants. As such, Shirou has to face off against his Counter Guardian self again, while also taking care of when the Jyamato show up. He wins the Grail War, though he does find it odd that there's another entity inside the Grail, and it's not sharing space with Angra Mainyu. Instead, the entity is Nyarlathotep, who has no idea how come it got shunted over to here instead of where Philemon sealed him away at... and Nyarlathotep is more willing to grant Shirou's wish of stopping the Grail Wars to reform the Grail Works LTD.

Then Shirou wins the Desire Grand Prix and becomes a Desire Deity, which gives Shirou the ability to restore the employees of the Grail Works LTD to their true ability and memories both prior to and after the initial reset that happened because of the original Geats of this story. This means that Ilya now has a physical body to mess with, Irisviel is now the Grail Spirit because of the messing with the timeline, and everyone else in the Emiya household become agents of the Grail Works... along with Rin, Sakura, Medusa and Arturia as they canonically are for this universe. I'm not forgetting your SI, either, nor am I forgetting anyone else... right?

Oh, right, Nyarlathotep is here because of you writing the Persona 5 Royal crossover. That's practically the only reason why I'm including the Outer God and Philemon in this story.

. . . All right - it's late, so for now, I will say that, again, this seems extremely (and unnecessarily) complicated. A bit more relevantly, perhaps, I can say that having gone through a few Kamen Rider series, I REALLY recommend that you wait until the series is finished before you start trying to adapt it, because I can basically guarantee that there are layers of complexity which are liable to complicate or negate what you might want to do with it.

[Xamusel]

I wanted to add in a tie-in to your current work in progress, Kieran, if that helps matters... how do I do that?

[Kieran]

I wanted to add in a tie-in to your current work in progress, Kieran, if that helps matters... how do I do that?

I'm not sure that that's possible, at this stage - everything right now is still in a formative stage, whether we're talking the Works' timeline or the P5 one. There's basically nothing to reference, yet.

I would like to caution you against adding Kamen Rider to the Works universe, in particular; remember that it's a multiversal franchise, for one thing, and that means the Second Magic would be a LOT weaker with so many practitioners - if not reduced to outright magecraft, since I'm sure at least one set of Kamen Rider reality jumpers uses technology to do so. That would ABSOLUTELY screw up things in the Works' universe of origin . . .

Aside from that, unless you can make it work such that it doesn't impact Nasuverse reality, or can work with it, it's probably a bad idea. I'm handwaving Persona by virtue of its effects being mostly psychological/spiritual, and the Nasuverse's concept of layers/textures to reality, which can fit the Metaverse/TV World/Tartarus, whatever. It rarely affects more than a single city (global effects are a consequence of failure, but not a starting point) at a time - as such, the events of the games could, theoretically, largely pass unnoticed. If I went with any other of the Shin Megami Tensei franchise, that absolutely WOULDN'T be possible.

And the Exalted aspects are limited to the character himself, and he largely powers his own effects - it doesn't require a drastic change to the metaphysics as laid down by TYPE-MOON to make it work . . . I don't know Geats specifically, but I suspect that isn't the case with that series. It certainly wouldn't be for most Kamen Rider series.

[Kieran]

. . . Once upon a time, I imagined Frid as belonging to one of DC Comics' Lantern Corps - and in the years since, they've introduced one powered by self-destructive impulses (or the "emotion" of self-hatred, if you prefer) - but it's a terrible idea. After all, even leaving aside the "infectious, and controlled by an alien eldritch entity" aspects, between him, Sakura, and (potentially) Olga Marie Animusphere, they'd probably wind up ruling/destroying the universe.

I can't deny it's tempting, though - their "rings" are even tattooed on!

[Xamusel]

I can imagine that, Kieran... also, is your avatar Hermione​?

[Kieran]

also, is your avatar Hermione​?

As a Slytherin, yes.

[Xamusel]

Thanks for the heads up... oh, dear. I'm now worried for my sanity, and the sanity of the one who made that image in the first place.

[Xamusel]

So... remember my idea for Kamen Rider Geats being crossed over with the Nasuverse? I just started watching episode 10 a few minutes ago (life got in the way earlier), and it seems that Geats is canonically Ukiyo Ace, and has been for a rather long time. Going by an earlier episode, I'd wager that he's been alive since around the time of Christ himself.

Why do I bring this up? Because Ace has made a lot of wishes over the last two millenia... and one of them could be to fuse certain pieces of fiction to the world of Geats. Then again, it hasn't finished airing yet, so I'm not going to mess with the idea any time soon.

However, in regards to things I could be doing to pass the time while waiting for Geats to finish airing, I have some strange ideas... one of which includes an original fiction project for a contest entry. I'm supposed to write a Light Novel on a specific website and get people to vote on if it's a good fit for the people over at Kodansha.

[Kieran]

So, work does proceed on the next chapter of A Royal Mess (it's about 30% complete), but this week has been insanely busy, and isn't likely to slow down for me until Thursday . . .

As behind as I am on several things, however, I've still managed to pick up new things to give me other ideas. One of them is a Power Rangers RPG that defines each Ranger by role, broad enough that several characters (and character archetypes) can serve in each:


Black: A skilled warrior whose charm and personality helps form the bonds between their team.

Blue: A clever technology expert with the strongest understanding of the Morphin Grid.

Green: Capable of working with a team, but excels at surviving against all odds.

Pink: An eagle-eyed sharpshooter always aware of their surroundings.

Red: A strong fighting spirit that leads from the front of any conflict.

Yellow: Fast and nimble, this warrior is good at exploiting an enemy’s weakness.


You see, it occurs to me that Zordon originally instructs Alpha to "Teleport to us five overbearing and over-emotional humans" (teenagers) - no instructions were given as to where to search . . .

Amusingly, going by those descriptions, I expect Arturia would be Red (of course, he did specify "human," so that might let her out), Shirou would be Black, Red (or maybe Green), Sakura Pink (or maybe Black), and Rin likely Blue (since Grid tech may as well be magic) - though RB is arguing Pink is more her rightful colour . . .

On the Tsukihime side, I expect Shiki would be Black, Red or Yellow, Kohaku Yellow, Green or Blue (depending on how you want to depict her), Hisui likely Black, Akiha Red . . . And Arcueid incandescently furious that Shiki's being swept up in this stuff WITHOUT HER . . .



. . . I've also, for various reasons, been reminded of the Animorphs series this week - and as grim as that got (and it didn't exactly start all sweetness and light), I'd think they need saving . . .

Thoughts?

[Arbitrarity]

You see, it occurs to me that Zordon originally instructs Alpha to "Teleport to us five overbearing and over-emotional humans" (teenagers) - no instructions were given as to where to search . . .

Having not actually seen Power Rangers and going mostly by descriptions, I was initially going to say making Shirou/Shiki Black felt strange, since it's not really their dominant trait, but Harem Protagonist EX does kind of matter. I agree with your Rin and Saber takes. On the loose assumptions your rangers shouldn't have too much color overlap, I was considering Black or Pink for Shirou (he may not be EMIYA, but is still Emiya), and more Blue/Green for Sakura. Sakura is... difficult to fit into most of those boxes, really.
I 100% think that Shiki fits Yellow foremost; if he goes anywhere else, no one is Yellow. I could see making Akiha Green, but the color match is too good not to do, I suppose.

. . . I've also, for various reasons, been reminded of the Animorphs series this week - and as grim as that got (and it didn't exactly start all sweetness and light), I'd think they need saving . . .

Spicy. I never finished reading all of those (got up to something like 30, and then finding later books got difficult). They certainly did start grim and got worse.

I'm not really sure how well-equipped the Works is to even deal with that, from a narrative perspective. If you break the shape of how conflict looks early in Animorphs (letting them fight on more-even terms, or blow the whistle on the infiltration), you're going to effectively go straight to open warfare, and the Animorphs won't be mentally ready for that (plus it invalidates a lot of what makes them useful). If you don't break those assumptions, the balance between keeping some of the grim and improving things seems difficult to strike. You could mutually escalate in fairly natural ways (if the Animorphs do better, they draw more heat, plus the entire Ellimist chess game). Also, with better infiltration, there are probably ways to exacerbate internal Yeerk political problems better-than-canon and minimize open warfare that way.

There definitely is something appealing about having a Lunar Exalt with the Animorphs, with the overlap in powers, but the power scaling issues seem difficult to approach.