The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[Kieran]

Aww, but I liked the idiot vampire. I suppose it might be a cheat if she's a servant though by removing her disability. On the other hand, it'd make it easier to push her into Works operations for obvious reasons. I guess it'd depend on the author if they wanted to use her, however.

There are viable arguments for and against it, I think, which is why I brought it up directly rather than unilaterally make a decision - well, that, and I like to think I did learn something from the "Dragon Saber incident." But I honestly believe there are good reasons to go either way.

I'm not really strongly for or against, honestly.
I can definitely see leaving it up to authorial discretion if the change enables plot or makes things easier to incorporate (re: paradigm shields or somesuch)

Which is another way to go, yes - but something I thought should be brought up to the community of readers and writers (and potential writers) at large.

Actually.... (goofy idea)

Spoiler:

On a silly note, if we don't assume Servant!Arc is from the Works timeline (or she ascends at some time in the future), we could have both concurrently, since the Throne is extra-temporal. I would be rather amused to see if Servant!Arc and True Ancestor!Arc would get along or not.
It also seems... not unreasonable that she might change her mind and return from the Throne in her regular form, if she misses Shiki or somesuch.

That . . . Is actually more plausible than you'd think it sounds like, in fact:

It's probably PRECISELY the case . . .

If you assume that Servant Arc is the reboot's Arc - which, going by the seiyuu, she absolutely IS.

[Kieran]

Avalon Castle, Phantasmagoria Island (Grail Works. Ltd. Headquarters)
Beyond the boundaries of time and space









“‘Pokémon?’” Rin repeated. “That’s a video game, right . . .? I think Mitsuzuri’s mentioned playing it a couple of times—why would he want to go there . . .?”

“Well,” Ilya said drily, “Apparently, these ‘Poke’- things are Phantasmal Species that inhabit a world akin to ours during the Age of the Gods—several of them are gods, in fact, with powers up to and including universe creation . . .”

“. . . I am now deeply regretting not paying more attention to Ayako,” Rin groaned. “Is this a request . . .?”

“No,” the Grail spirit said. “He was insistent on going for resource-mining—”

“WHAT?!” Rin sputtered. “All his lectures about secrecy, and he’s going to try and catch alien Phantasmal Species . . .?”

“Not quite,” Ilya giggled. “I think it was more along the lines of seeing if he could add them to his ‘shape library.’ Given the lack of mana in our era, a Pokémon couldn’t really survive here; certainly, not the more powerful ones.” She tilted her head thoughtfully, before musing, “Although, maybe I could modify the system to accept them in place of a Servant . . .?”

Now it was Rin who spoke in a dry tone as she countered, “I think, on balance, that a Servant is more useful than some cutesy, kid’s-cartoon pet.”

“Depends on the Servant—or the Pokémon,” Ilya countered, before reluctantly conceding, “but you’re probably right.”

“That being the case,” Rin mused, “I’m still not seeing the logic in his going—I mean, sure, if he can add a few of these things to his library, if they’re as powerful as you say, it would almost certainly help—but if they’re as powerful as you say, I doubt they’ll be easy to get shapes out of. After all, he has to hunt them and consume their heart’s blood to do it, doesn’t he . . .?”

“New edition, new rules,” Ilya said. “Every Attribute has an associated ‘Heart’s Blood’ Charm now. Depending on how he decides to do it, Frid could literally tear someone’s shape out of them with raw strength, trick them out of it with cunning, use his charisma to enter into an agreement to acquire a shape for an equivalent service—”

“Right,” Rin said suddenly. “He did say that’s how he got the magus shape he used in Trifas, didn’t he . . .?”

“But simply studying a target in-depth will do, as well,” the Grail spirit concluded. She glanced around, then leaned in, “There’s a pool going on as to whether or not he can actually turn into Onii-chan or Tohno-kun yet, because of that.”

Rin considered that idea, briefly pictured it—and flushed crimson.

“Akiha-san had a similar expression, when I told her,” Ilya said smugly. “She tried to cover it by saying it would be excellent security for her brother—against people trying to kill him, or certain others. . . But we both know what really went through her mind—and yours, just now—don’t we . . .?”

“S-Shut up, Ilya!” the Tohsaka heiress sputtered, trying to shove down the idea of two Emiyas—or Emiya and an EMIYA who wouldn’t be trying to kill each other—back into the depths of her subconscious.

The little gremlin had the audacity to giggle.

“Anyways,” Rin said hastily, not so much changing the subject as verbally beating it into the form she desired, “that doesn’t explain why you’re telling me all this! Why was it so important that I had to come here right after school, Ilya—what aren’t you telling me?”

The albino smiled cheerfully, and said, “Well, aside from shapes, he thought that certain items from there might be useful; specifically, what he called ‘Berries.’ They’re apparently designed to have effects on the Pokémon, in and out of fights—healing, temporary ability boosts, and such. Apparently, given the quasi-elemental nature of Pokémon, Frid thought they might be applicable to Servants, too.”

Not for the first time, Rin felt the headache that came with being more or less the only real magus in the Works. The others could do magecraft, sure, but for all her inborn power and implanted knowledge, as Ilya had never really been intended to be the Einzbern heir, or equivalent, her theoretical knowledge was limited. She knew how to apply her power to win fights, how to find potential weak points, but ultimately, she’d been intended to fight and die in the Grail War; more esoteric learning would’ve been a waste of resources. Sakura had been much the same—

(And Rin shoved those nightmares deep down.)

—and Emiya’s half-baked “training” was an insult to her professional pride. As such, Rin was left being the resident expert when it came to magecraft, even if it related to things not technically in her field. Servants she knew, because the Tohsaka had been involved in the Holy Grail War from the beginning; but the actual system was the Matous’ doing, and adding in a foreign element like Ilya was suggesting? A biological one, at that?

“. . . I suppose, if they’re grown in a high-prana-density environment, and absorbed some of the ambient energy, they might be useful . . .?” the Tohsaka heiress offered with a shrug, before adding, “You’re asking me to judge something I haven’t even seen, never mind studied.”

“I’m hearing a lot of excuses, Rin,” Ilya said slyly.

A hot feeling burned in her chest. “You say that as though you could do better! It’s a sad fact that even with the heirs of two longer established and more prestigious magus families here, the literal lunatic is the closest thing I have to an actual peer!”

The Lunar Exalt’s actual education in magecraft was laughable, but his knowledge of the subject, despite its shallowness, had surprising breadth. He couldn’t tell her how certain families performed their Mysteries, for example, but he could describe what they were, what invoking them accomplished, and how the invocations looked and sounded. Really, in some ways he was a goldmine of secrets that the Clock Tower would absolutely kill to protect; assuming that one of the various families didn’t try to snatch him up to get dirt on their rivals.

And even that didn’t get into his ability to creatively apply his knowledge.

He conjured up a freaking KAIJU based on a general idea of what that stupid stick could do—and with less than a minute to think about it. If he’d been in the Fuyuki War . . .

Her mind conjured a pleasant vision of said kaiju being unleashed on Berserker, briefly (complete with accompanying images of a shocked and sobbing Ilya), before moving on to Kotomine—and then what she’d actually said caught up with her brain.

“. . . Oh, God,” Rin groaned, burying her face in her hands, “He really is the closest thing I’ve got to a peer, isn’t he . . .?”

Her “only magus in the Works” headache intensified.

The Grail spirit, on the other hand, had acquired a grin that was positively fiendish, and Rin felt a sick sense of dread settle into her stomach as Ilya positively chirped her next words.

“I’m so glad you said that Rin—because he had another reason for wanting to go, and it sounded like it was the most important one, to him . . .”

Apparently, the little gremlin didn’t think mere words could do it justice, because Ilya waved a hand, and an image appeared of Frid and Ilyasviel herself—presumably a record of a prior point in time.

“‘Evolutionary Stones?’” the Grail spirit said in a puzzled tone, as though repeating what she’d heard.

“Yeah,” Frid replied. “As far as I know, the vast majority of Pokémon evolve naturally, through experience—but some of them require outside catalysts, and the stones are the most common ones. They’re elementally inclined, as far as I remember: Fire, Water, Grass are the types I recall being mentioned, but I have faint memories of a ‘Moon Stone’ being mentioned in one episode, so there are probably other types available in the game versions. I’d expect a ‘Sun Stone,’ at least—they like balancing things like that.”

“And why is that important . . .?” Ilya asked.

“Because it’s possible they’ll function like Hearthstones for me, but more important is what they might be able to do for you.”

“What do you mean?”

“Ilya, they have the inherent energy to trigger evolution in a Pokemon—which can cause ridiculous increases in size, configuration and mass between forms—in some cases, we’re talking a difference of metres and tonnes, plural. I’m no physics major, but even contemplating the amount of energy needed to convert into that much matter has me thinking it’s a lot—maybe enough that a Stone, or a handful of them, can equal a Servant’s worth of charge for you . . . And that’s not even getting into what Rin might be able to do with them.”

“Rin?” the Grail spirit prompted, in an almost innocent tone.

The image scowled. “Don’t be so deliberately obtuse, Ilya. Even leaving aside the fact that she’s a prodigy of a mage and quite intelligent, she’s at the bare minimum an Average One who uses jewel magecraft. Even if all she could do with a Fire Stone is supercharge a fire-element spell, that’s no small thing given the amount of power involved—and I’d bet real money she’ll be able to figure out how to do a lot more than that. Never mind what she might do with Stones whose elements don’t match your world’s typing system, or just in terms of advancing her own magecraft theories, just by seeing what they do and how . . .”

Frid shook his head. “Even a single Evolutionary Stone represents so much potential for her, I’d have to be brain-dead to pass up the opportunity—DON’T say it,” he warned immediately.

In the image, Ilya wore an identical smirk to the one Rin saw on her face now but said nothing.

“Of course, ideally, I’ll want a lot more than one—never mind the differing types, no researcher worth their salt wants to rely on a single sample. And then there’s the question of potential differences in individual specimens. Is there a purity scale? Do Stones found in different environments have different qualities? How would those potential differences affect anything Rin tries to do . . .?” He shook his head again. “You’d better make sure this is a facet with a big difference in relativistic timescales—if I’m going to do this right, it’s going to take a while. I can spare the time, but there’s no point in you guys waiting months or years for this . . .”

The Tohsaka heiress was vaguely aware of her eyes widening and her cheeks warming, but she was mostly too busy being stunned by the elaborate forethought being laid out to notice. It was a frankly ridiculous amount of effort for what seemed like little more than a theory on his part; and it was being phrased as being mostly done for her sake. Yes, he, and the Works as a whole, could profit greatly if he was correct on all counts—but it seemed as though she was intended to be the primary beneficiary, by his way of thinking.

“And even if I’m completely wrong,” Frid said, as if to hammer home the conclusion, “and they’re totally useless in a magical context, they’re still minerals. They might be valuable as mundane gems—or we could even sell them as ‘replica’ Pokémon memorabilia. Given how ‘high-quality and authentic’ they’ll be, I imagine that collectors would pay quite a bit for them . . . And that could handle the bills around here for a bit, or fund Rin’s magecraft research in general. There’s basically no downside to trying, and quite a lot of good reasons to try.”

“Most of which,” the past Ilya pointed out, “seem to boil down to ‘It’ll help Rin out.’”

“You say that like it’s a bad thing,” he countered. “. . . Besides, she’s had a rough time of things—if this helps cheer her up a little, it’s worth it.”

Rin was vaguely aware of a whistling noise from somewhere and wondered if Sakura or Shirou had a kettle on.

(She resolutely refused to consider the idea that steam was emerging from her ears, even if the heat of her face made it seem actually plausible.)

Fortunately for the magus’ composure, Ilya chose to end the “recording” there—which allowed Rin to concentrate her now-risen ire on the Grail spirit.

“And what was the point of showing me all that, Ilyasviel?!” she demanded.

The albino had the gall to keep smirking. “Well, I wanted to point out that for someone you’re embarrassed to consider a peer, he seems to be going to an awful lot of trouble just for you . . .”

“So what?” Rin shot back, but Ilya continued as if she hadn’t spoken at all.

“And while he probably wouldn’t know this, I guess you’re too ill-bred to know it either—”

Rin bristled with a full-body shudder, a growl emerging from her throat.

“—But in higher magus society?” Ilya prompted, seemingly gleefully ignoring the murderous magus. “Something like what he’s proposing would be considered an acceptable dowry.”

Rin reared back like the other girl had slapped her. “WHAT?”

“At least, for someone of your social level,” Ilya added.

Rin’s mouth opened and worked at moving, but no sound immediately came out.

“‘Dowry?’” came a new voice—and the Tohsaka heiress spun in horror to behold Sakura standing in the kitchen entrance, Rider trailing behind her holding bags of groceries. “Are you getting married, Nee-san? Is it someone we know?”

There was a gleam in the younger girl’s eyes that said she’d heard more than she was letting on; enough to make the question entirely rhetorical.

“I—Damn it, it’s not LIKE THAT!” Rin exploded. “He’s not AT ALL my type!”

“Who isn’t?” asked another new voice, as Emiya, of all people, emerged from behind Rider, carrying an even bigger load of groceries (as expected, even though it made no sense not to have the Servant do the heavy lifting). “And how so, Tohsaka?”

Now Rin was sure steam was shooting from her ears, at being asked that question by HIM, of all people . . .!

She whirled on Ilya, who was looking both beatific and demonic in her smugness.

“THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT . . .!”










Writer's Notes: Because why should Akiha get all the bullying . . .?


In all seriousness, however, this seems like a reasonable argument for a story to me. Evolutionary Stones as I remember them do seem too good to pass up on Rin's behalf (along with Berries, and possibly other things), the Pokemon world is crazy enough to present a genuine threat to anyone visiting - and I didn't even have to go into the potential shenanigans that you could wind up mixed up in, there. Seriously, it basically has "semi-annual potential world-ending catastrophes," using just what I remember of the anime and what I've heard of the games . . .

For all that it's a death world, though (and it really IS), the cutesy theme to the place might be relaxing for certain characters - and imagine which Pokemon they might actually wind up bonding with - or which characters might be inspired by them (or would prove to be an interesting fight), for that matter.

As to the "dowry" thing - no, it's not a deliberate shipping attempt on my part. As part of Ilya and Sakura's "tease Rin and ship her with 'anyone BUT Shirou' campaign," however . . .

[Arbitrarity]

It's an in character shipping attempt by characters with ulterior motives to do so. Very nice.

I feel like Frid's reasoning seems a bit questionable re: Elemental stones, since he's assuming that the stone actually contains energy that powers the evolution, rather than being a reagent (I can't say catalyst, since they get consumed on use, I think). Most Pokemon evolve without stones, so I'd think the potential energy is in the Pokemon. Still worth testing, I suppose. Reminds me of people arguing that Goodberry contains enough energy for a nuke because you can feed the Tarrasque one a day, and it covers his nutritional requirements.

It's somewhat funny how Pokemon is such a menacing world, yet has such cutesy games/anime.
Also... do I have to worry about a crossover, since this omake is potenta

[Kieran]

It's an in character shipping attempt by characters with ulterior motives to do so. Very nice.

Thank you. As noted in prior works, it seems like something many of them would do: attempt to eliminate competition by involving them with someone else.

. . . Well, no - a fully in-character reaction for most of them would likely involve killing said competition, let's be honest; but since neither Shirou nor Shiki would likely approve of that (with the possible exception of Sacchin, if she's gone full Dead Apostle), this is a preferable alternative. And in Ilya and Sakura's specific case, needling Rin like this is also entertaining in its own right.

. . . Huh - I wonder if one of the reasons Akiha doesn't think much of Frid is because she can't pull the same trick? There's nothing really to recommend him to Arcueid or Ciel (presuming she exists), and she has authority over her maids (or so Akiha presumes, anyway), so pursuing that avenue is a waste, as well. I imagine it would be rather frustrating . . .

(Of course, it's always possible she threatens Hisui with an arrangement to keep her from indulging Shiki too much . . . )

I feel like Frid's reasoning seems a bit questionable re: Elemental stones, since he's assuming that the stone actually contains energy that powers the evolution, rather than being a reagent (I can't say catalyst, since they get consumed on use, I think).

To be fair, I (and he) am running on 25-year-old memories of the anime, plus more recent wiki-diving on my end - and nowhere yet have a found a full explanation of the metaphysics of that type of evolution, or how the stone fits in.

Most Pokémon evolve without stones, so I'd think the potential energy is in the Pokemon.

That's possible, though there's an interesting video about that . . .

Still worth testing, I suppose.

It is, I think - and as Frid noted, even if he's entirely wrong, they still possess some value as "high-quality replica Pokémon merchandise," to say nothing of actual minerals - and even if they can't be sold, it'd still be a stock of raw materials for her own magecraft that Rin wouldn't have to actually spend money on.

Reminds me of people arguing that Goodberry contains enough energy for a nuke because you can feed the Tarrasque one a day, and it covers his nutritional requirements.

That's expecting a bit much out of a first-level spell, I think.

It's somewhat funny how Pokémon is such a menacing world, yet has such cutesy games/anime.

Yes - which is part of what makes it tempting . . .

Also... do I have to worry about a crossover, since this omake is potenta

As I said, I'm tempted - it's not as though there's not a dozen world-ending threats the Works could help deal with, after any of the hundreds of ways "the plot" could go wrong. Heck, or even go RIGHT - if I understand correctly, choosing the correct options in the latest game (Pokémon Legends: Arceus) can have the protagonist be grabbed from a world that has no Pokémon at all (meaning, in other words, ours . . .?)

The question is, is it something anyone would like to see . . .? And whom, exactly, would you like to see - and where in the timeline . . .?

[Arbitrarity]

The question is, is it something anyone would like to see . . .? And whom, exactly, would you like to see - and where in the timeline . . .?

Personally... not really? I think some of your other recent concepts have been more compelling (recently, I'm partial to the P5 one). The implication the Works can freely open portals to specific universes that aren't in trouble further implies Godafrid should be able to do a lot with his extended lifespan, and while that likely wouldn't come without consequence, it seems intrinsically very exploitable.

Also, unrelated, but I apparently entirely missed this snippet about Krampus, and it's pretty neat.

[Xamusel]

I have to agree with Arbitrarity on this one... in short, this idea of yours is not going to end well for the purpose of the Grail Works.

[Kieran]

Personally... not really? I think some of your other recent concepts have been more compelling (recently, I'm partial to the P5 one).

I have to agree with Arbitrarity on this one... in short, this idea of yours is not going to end well for the purpose of the Grail Works.

All right, then - I really need to get on that, it seems . . .

The implication the Works can freely open portals to specific universes that aren't in trouble further implies Godafrid should be able to do a lot with his extended lifespan, and while that likely wouldn't come without consequence, it seems intrinsically very exploitable.

It's part of their "resource-gathering capability," to help charge the Grail, yes - and yes, he could.

Also, unrelated, but I apparently entirely missed this snippet about Krampus, and it's pretty neat.

I wondered, and ultimately concluded that no one had found it interesting . . . Should I canonize it, then?

[Arbitrarity]

I wondered, and ultimately concluded that no one had found it interesting . . . Should I canonize it, then?

I'm not entirely sure how I missed it, honestly. I did go camping around that time, so I must have scrolled through it when catching up afterwards, or I used the "last post" link which jumped over.

I'm loosely familiar with the Avatar effects from Scion - God, and they're certainly an great tool for the climax of a story. I also really enjoyed that little dig at Erik choosing a practical weapon for once. I can imagine he usually Macgyver'd together something.
The Fatebinding to defeat Angra Mainyu certainly has some fun implications for the Works. I'm not sure if there's anything in Fate/Anarchy it particularly applies to, but I do enjoy getting the alternative context for Erik and Krampus's relationship. Knowing more about who Krampus was contextualizes Erik's perspective a lot.

[Kieran]

I'm not entirely sure how I missed it, honestly. I did go camping around that time, so I must have scrolled through it when catching up afterwards, or I used the "last post" link which jumped over.

Probably. It's happened to me, before, with high-traffic threads/stories on other forums.

I'm loosely familiar with the Avatar effects from Scion - God, and they're certainly an great tool for the climax of a story.

Yup.

I also really enjoyed that little dig at Erik choosing a practical weapon for once. I can imagine he usually Macgyver'd together something.

Basically almost every week, RB would have him pull something from Metal Gear Solid or Sonic The Hedgehog, and explain to me why it was a viable Relic within the rules. . . And then wonder to me why his singularity launcher (read: "black hole cannon"), Mystic Eyes of Death Perception goggles, or monomolecular-edged nanomachine swarm weren't doing the damage that our other player was consistenly pulling off with a sword and high Epic Strength, or why the Aesir weren't giving him much if any respect - even when I pointed out their values and traditional mindset (i.e., anybody can push a button and kill somebody from miles away - it takes Courage to actually face them, blade in hand).

And then, of course, if anything broke, Erik would go into a frenzy trying to fix it, and be basically be useless for the rest of the session until it was . . . All in-character reactions, so I couldn't fault the roleplaying - but Erik's tendency for complicated ubertech solutions when he'd actually be better off just punching his problems in the face could get grating, for both the players and the party.

. . . So, if Erik wanted to borrow something simple, practical and effective? Krampus would absolutely be behind that, even to the point of sacrificing the trophy that has become his own personal weapon.

The Fatebinding to defeat Angra Mainyu certainly has some fun implications for the Works.

Particularly if this is a P5 fusion world, since it implies that Zelretch was only able to pull off swapping the Grail as he did for the Fifth War because Frid was around, albeit not near Fuyuki at the time . . .

I'm not sure if there's anything in Fate/Anarchy it particularly applies to, but I do enjoy getting the alternative context for Erik and Krampus's relationship. Knowing more about who Krampus was contextualizes Erik's perspective a lot.

To Krampus, Erik is a pain in the ass for the above reasons. To Erik, Krampus is a pain in the ass because he knows ALL the little secrets and sins, and only reveals them when and how it will cause the most possible pain - and he's perfectly happy to let people dig themselves in deeper, just so he can inflict that much more punishment on them . . . When dealing with Krampus, Erik often winds up quoting (and feeling like) Burt Gummer.

But they are Bandmates, and "have seen some shit," as RB puts it, so they've learned to put up with it - and it's not as though their particular approaches have never been useful, at times, either.

[Kieran]

Personally... not really? I think some of your other recent concepts have been more compelling (recently, I'm partial to the P5 one).

As an addendum to the above, I could always do a fusionverse . . .

[Xamusel]

LOL!! XD Kieran, good thing I wasn't drinking my coffee, because I would've spittaked that.

[Kieran]

I know what you mean - I thought the timing was just about perfect, myself . . .

Sadly, it doesn't look like the artist has done any more in the same style, which is a shame.

[Vigilantia]

Personally... not really? I think some of your other recent concepts have been more compelling (recently, I'm partial to the P5 one). The implication the Works can freely open portals to specific universes that aren't in trouble further implies Godafrid should be able to do a lot with his extended lifespan, and while that likely wouldn't come without consequence, it seems intrinsically very exploitable.

Also, unrelated, but I apparently entirely missed this snippet about Krampus, and it's pretty neat.

Why is that?

[Arbitrarity]

Why is that?

Godafrid is deploying to a world of his choice, based on what he thinks he can get out of it.

As an Exalted, Godafrid is extremely long-lived, and the Works controls the relative time flow between themselves and worlds their agents are deployed in. This allows Godafrid an enormous amount of prep time under any circumstance where you'd need it. As in the Pokemon example, this can be used for resource gathering, learning, etc. If you need him to think through a problem, write notes, heal up, etc, you could put him somewhere, let a week pass in time there, and have him return in under an hour.
My previous assumption is the Works was fairly limited in their ability to deploy based on their mandate; they could only deploy agents to places that need help, and only for roughly as long as it was needed.

This can still be constrained in a few ways, that mitigate exactly how exploitable it would be:
- If there is a substantial energy cost associated with transport between worlds, or in controlling the relative time flow (especially scaling with the difference). Such a cost might be subsidized when following their mandate, so it doesn't matter for most stories, but that just means Godafrid has to think really hard about the juiciest and most worthwhile targets. This also doesn't feel totally consistent with how they fast-forward through years in hours in some snippets, like the Halloween ones.
- Godafrid does still have a finite lifespan, so burning hundreds of years of his life on some trips may not be worthwhile. Most practical applications shouldn't seriously dent an Exalted though.
- The most likely; things become complicated wherever he happens to be.

The last can be loosely justified by the workings of Destiny, and is absolutely what would happen in practice, it just dents verisimilitude for me if that happens consistently. I suppose he might learn his lesson after it happens once or twice. But that doesn't really mean it's not exploitable, just that the universe is conspiring to make it impractical to exploit.

I've seen enough discussions about how to abuse Genesis with Flowing Time that the time flow alone feels exploitable, let alone the "pick from all fictional worlds" part.

[Kieran]

I've seen enough discussions about how to abuse Genesis with Flowing Time that the time flow alone feels exploitable, let alone the "pick from all fictional worlds" part.

Since the mechanics of epic-level spells never made any bloody sense to me (never mind seemed worth what they'd cost), I am totally unfamiliar with that - but I can extrapolate more or less what you mean by the names.

That being the case, let's see what I can do to address your concerns . . .

Godafrid is deploying to a world of his choice, based on what he thinks he can get out of it.

As an Exalted, Godafrid is extremely long-lived, and the Works controls the relative time flow between themselves and worlds their agents are deployed in. This allows Godafrid an enormous amount of prep time under any circumstance where you'd need it. As in the Pokemon example, this can be used for resource gathering, learning, etc. If you need him to think through a problem, write notes, heal up, etc, you could put him somewhere, let a week pass in time there, and have him return in under an hour.
My previous assumption is the Works was fairly limited in their ability to deploy based on their mandate; they could only deploy agents to places that need help, and only for roughly as long as it was needed.

While it has yet to be used "onscreen," so to speak, the Works has always been intended to have the ability to resource-gather - either for items to empower the Grail in place of Servants, so that they can use its wish-granting abilities to solve clients' issues, or to use in place of the Grail. It still takes a fair bit of work, since Servants aren't exactly small bundles of energy, and whatever they use has to be supportable.

For example, a pocket singularity sounds like a great power source, until you move it to the TYPE-MOONverse, where physics says it can't happen, and the setting's physics don't explain it well enough for the World to write it off as "close enough to magecraft." They'd end up spending more energy to keep a paradigm shield running over it so that it didn't accidentally consume the planet than they'd ever get out of it.

D&D magic items, as a counterpoint, have rules in place to drain them of magical energy for other uses - granted, not often applied (depends on the edition and setting) - but they're there. Likewise, generic items like "mana crystals," "potions," etc. can be handwaved as working without needing a specific magic system in place in order to make it viable.

This can still be constrained in a few ways, that mitigate exactly how exploitable it would be:

- If there is a substantial energy cost associated with transport between worlds, or in controlling the relative time flow (especially scaling with the difference). Such a cost might be subsidized when following their mandate, so it doesn't matter for most stories, but that just means Godafrid has to think really hard about the juiciest and most worthwhile targets.

- Godafrid does still have a finite lifespan, so burning hundreds of years of his life on some trips may not be worthwhile. Most practical applications shouldn't seriously dent an Exalted though.

Yes, which is why I consistently volunteer him for long-term missions that might take that long.

This also doesn't feel totally consistent with how they fast-forward through years in hours in some snippets, like the Halloween ones.

Those presumably aren't canon - at least until next Halloween, when I start again.

Still, point taken.

The most likely; things become complicated wherever he happens to be.

That would have been the general plan, in the Pokémon setup - or anything else I try in that vein.

The last can be loosely justified by the workings of Destiny, and is absolutely what would happen in practice, it just dents verisimilitude for me if that happens consistently. I suppose he might learn his lesson after it happens once or twice. But that doesn't really mean it's not exploitable, just that the universe is conspiring to make it impractical to exploit.

That's fair.

[Arbitrarity]

Since the mechanics of epic-level spells never made any bloody sense to me (never mind seemed worth what they'd cost), I am totally unfamiliar with that - but I can extrapolate more or less what you mean by the names.

Basically "I declare in this tiny place, time flows 5000x faster than reality". It's not intended to do that, but is very easy to abuse if any GM actually would let you.

That being the case, let's see what I can do to address your concerns . . .

I should say that I don't doubt this would be executed well. I'm not concerned about it really breaking the setting either. There's a lot of leeway to establish in-setting reasoning for limits, or just glossing over it and leaving specifics vague. I just see "low-cost timeflow alteration across dimensions, plus extended longevity" and my mind immediately hops to exploiting preparation time. I expanded on my thinking about that specifically, since I was prompted.

It's a contributing factor to "I find this snippet less compelling", but probably not the main one. Resource gathering like that is a reasonable plot hook.

While it has yet to be used "onscreen," so to speak, the Works has always been intended to have the ability to resource-gather - either for items to empower the Grail in place of Servants, so that they can use its wish-granting abilities to solve clients' issues, or to use in place of the Grail. It still takes a fair bit of work, since Servants aren't exactly small bundles of energy, and whatever they use has to be supportable.

Servants do cost energy, true. I also do recall resource-gathering being a plot point multiple times before, so I concede this is an established setting element.

For example, a pocket singularity sounds like a great power source, until you move it to the TYPE-MOONverse, where physics says it can't happen, and the setting's physics don't explain it well enough for the World to write it off as "close enough to magecraft." They'd end up spending more energy to keep a paradigm shield running over it so that it didn't accidentally consume the planet than they'd ever get out of it.

D&D magic items, as a counterpoint, have rules in place to drain them of magical energy for other uses - granted, not often applied (depends on the edition and setting) - but they're there. Likewise, generic items like "mana crystals," "potions," etc. can be handwaved as working without needing a specific magic system in place in order to make it viable.

Both reasonable points. That reigns in sources of truly infinite energy. I have no objections to handwaving draining items for the local flavor of energy.

Yes, which is why I consistently volunteer him for long-term missions that might take that long.

Indeed; I'm arguing against that being an issue that constrains his ability to resource gather.

Those presumably aren't canon - at least until next Halloween, when I start again.

Well, Shuffle! had something similar, though I don't have too many other examples where it's a massive ratio. So there might be (not currently established) limitations.

That would have been the general plan, in the Pokémon setup - or anything else I try in that vein.

That's why it's a plot hook

That's fair.

There's something that feels narratively satisfying about the universe conspiring that way against Godafrid specifically, so I'm not sure "dents verisimilitude" is exactly the right phrasing. There are well-established reasons the universe would do that to him. I'm switching between RPG and storytelling thinking here.

Also, I'm just realizing when I said "this omake" I meant to link to the Fate/Anarchy thread, but it apparently got mangled.

[Kieran]

Basically "I declare in this tiny place, time flows 5000x faster than reality". It's not intended to do that, but is very easy to abuse if any GM actually would let you.

*Shakes* . . . Yeah, I reiterate - I've never really seen any way that epic-level spells make sense.

I should say that I don't doubt this would be executed well. I'm not concerned about it really breaking the setting either. There's a lot of leeway to establish in-setting reasoning for limits, or just glossing over it and leaving specifics vague. I just see "low-cost timeflow alteration across dimensions, plus extended longevity" and my mind immediately hops to exploiting preparation time. I expanded on my thinking about that specifically, since I was prompted.

It's a contributing factor to "I find this snippet less compelling", but probably not the main one. Resource gathering like that is a reasonable plot hook.

And running into a plot while trying to do something not remotely related is a nice hook in and of itself . . .

Servants do cost energy, true.

And represent massive amounts of it in and of themselves - it takes only one Servant less to grant a wish than to punch a hole in reality directly to the Root - and if it was that easy, every magus would've been doing it from the beginning.

Both reasonable points. That reigns in sources of truly infinite energy. I have no objections to handwaving draining items for the local flavor of energy.

Just a quibble of mine, because I see it so often: to the best of my knowledge, you actually want "reins" in this instance.

Well, Shuffle! had something similar, though I don't have too many other examples where it's a massive ratio. So there might be (not currently established) limitations.

Not generally, no, because it hasn't come up in a "canon" work (yet).

That's why it's a plot hook

Yup.

There's something that feels narratively satisfying about the universe conspiring that way against Godafrid specifically, so I'm not sure "dents verisimilitude" is exactly the right phrasing. There are well-established reasons the universe would do that to him. I'm switching between RPG and storytelling thinking here.

One of the main reasons I would write something like this, in fact.

Also, I'm just realizing when I said "this omake" I meant to link to the Fate/Anarchy thread, but it apparently got mangled.

Ah . . . Yes, that's fair.





. . . On another note - you'll recall I had issues with potentially using Hassan of Serenity, because she's "Lawful Evil," and a "pure" Grail isn't supposed to summon evil Servants, Anti-Heroes, etcerea? It actually gets worse . . .

Because the Trifas Grail is uncorrupted (since the Einzberns summoned Ruler rather than Avenger), right? That's the whole point in its favour . . . Except that the "pure" Grail summons Atalante (Neutral Evil), and of course, Jack the Ripper - so obviously, there's an aspect I'm missing here, right . . .?

Certainly opens up the Servant pool, if I can figure out why - but I admit, I'm baffled.

[Arbitrarity]

Just a quibble of mine, because I see it so often: to the best of my knowledge, you actually want "reins" in this instance.

I'm infuriated because I also hate seeing mixed up homophones, and yet I got caught by this one. Reign for rule, rein for horses, indeed.

. . . On another note - you'll recall I had issues with potentially using Hassan of Serenity, because she's "Lawful Evil," and a "pure" Grail isn't supposed to summon evil Servants, Anti-Heroes, etcerea? It actually gets worse . . .

Because the Trifas Grail is uncorrupted (since the Einzberns summoned Ruler rather than Avenger), right? That's the whole point in its favour . . . Except that the "pure" Grail summons Atalante (Neutral Evil), and of course, Jack the Ripper - so obviously, there's an aspect I'm missing here, right . . .?

Certainly opens up the Servant pool, if I can figure out why - but I admit, I'm baffled.

Semiramis, Vlad as well. That... is odd, though I can't say I'm surprised Apocrypha is inconsistent like that. I might just call it an inconsistency, though I imagine there are people more versed in the precise lore on this forum.
Extra-textually, I'd imagine that we're used to seeing some anti-heroes or villains in Fate, so having them is expected, even if the in-text justification for it is gone.

Brainstorming possibilities...
I don't think it makes sense to relate it to the "reserve system" that summons an extra 7 servants, since that was activated AFTER the Black side was summoned.
Can't think of a good explanation based on the presence of Amakusa Shirou.
The corruption could be somehow extra-temporal, which is hard to disprove, but not really helpful for the Works.
The Greater Grail being used without a Lesser Grail is different, though precisely how that might matter isn't clear.
Final idea, summoning only non-evil Heroic Spirits might have been a restriction imposed by the specific ritual of the Einzberns, in order to make it safer. Tweaking the ritual in some fashion might make it possible to summon evil-aligned Heroic Spirits without wholesale corrupting the Grail? Darnic would have had motivation to do that, since he was trying to summon Vlad specifically.

[Kieran]

. . . Yeah, the urge to use Servant!Arc is definitely strong:

[Kieran]

I'm infuriated because I also hate seeing mixed up homophones, and yet I got caught by this one. Reign for rule, rein for horses, indeed.

Semiramis, Vlad as well. That... is odd, though I can't say I'm surprised Apocrypha is inconsistent like that. I might just call it an inconsistency, though I imagine there are people more versed in the precise lore on this forum.
Extra-textually, I'd imagine that we're used to seeing some anti-heroes or villains in Fate, so having them is expected, even if the in-text justification for it is gone.

Probably. And further research (or at least, as far as I can determine) says that evil Heroic Spirits may be possible - or at least, I don't see that they're explicitly forbidden - but Anti-Heroes are ABSOLUTELY right out. This list includes Elizabeth Bathory (in all incarnations, Tamamo-no-Mae, and Jack the Ripper; which means, again, that the Trifas Grail is still wrong, somehow . . .

Brainstorming possibilities...
I don't think it makes sense to relate it to the "reserve system" that summons an extra 7 servants, since that was activated AFTER the Black side was summoned.
Can't think of a good explanation based on the presence of Amakusa Shirou.
The corruption could be somehow extra-temporal, which is hard to disprove, but not really helpful for the Works.
The Greater Grail being used without a Lesser Grail is different, though precisely how that might matter isn't clear.
Final idea, summoning only non-evil Heroic Spirits might have been a restriction imposed by the specific ritual of the Einzberns, in order to make it safer. Tweaking the ritual in some fashion might make it possible to summon evil-aligned Heroic Spirits without wholesale corrupting the Grail? Darnic would have had motivation to do that, since he was trying to summon Vlad specifically.

Not bad suggestions. . . At this point, in conjunction with the above, I'm more than half-tempted to have Zelretch summon a certain foreign entity to sic Krampus on the Grail directly; much as with Angra Mainyu, he'd have an advantage, being a God of Punishment - such that he could turn the damned curse on the Grail off, reasoning that it had had enough.


. . . And inadvertently cause his mortal self to be drawn to the Works' universe, thus starting Kurai/Frid's whole series of issues . . .