The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[Kieran]

Nothing wrong with light and fluffy. It's a good year for it, really.

Yes it is - and "lighter" was always the goal of this series, anyway . . .

I've always been impressed by how much suffering you usually drop on your protagonists, and the ways in which they're flawed. Galen's emotional instability, self-destructiveness, and penchant for keeping secrets were all great ways to balance out his strengths, and there were some powerfully cathartic moments as a result.

Which, while gratifying to hear (thank you), is less of an accomplishment than you'd think; as a self-insert, all I really had to do was write myself, and play it straight.

However, one of the things that gave that weight was the long-term setup and payoff, which isn't easy to achieve in snippet format. (I suspect this sounds critical in this context, but this is more a "I wanted to compliment you on this before and here's a context where it's somewhat relevant")

I do understand, and you're absolutely right. Hopefully, in the event this becomes a full story, we'll all be able to get more out of it.

That said, that doesn't mean I think you should necessarily force drama,

No - that never ends well, in my experience . . . Of course, as we saw with Trinity, that does not mean that the characters won't force drama on me . . .

and "why can't I hold all these cute girls" in a slightly subversive way is a very fun read.

Glad to hear.

I also don't actually know much about the actual plot of Shuffle! apart from wiki skimming, so I'll probably enjoy the details either way.

I admit, I'm in a similar position for a lot of the expanded universe: the original game, I can find walkthroughs of (or purchase on Steam, maybe, and play myself), but not the versions which would include Mayumi's route (and I can hear her crying from here about it ), the homeroom teacher's route, the other five characters that exist but only exist in certain versions . . . I have (or had, at least) Tick! Tack!, so I could play Nerine's route out to its conclusion(s) - and in theory, I can get Really? Really! as well, and thus Kaede's (and at least get introduced to the native Sakura).

Episode 2, on the other hand, is not translated (yet, possibly ever), so I'm limited by what the wiki and other websites I can find can tell me - never mind its sequel, Princess x Princess, which hasn't been released yet . . .!

There's also been a fair amount of butterfly effect from Rin being proactive already. I suspect I've just been conditioned to be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Well, since I brought them up . . . I can see a couple of Episode 2's characters being one heck of a proverbial drop - one of them wants to disassociate her world from humans entirely, because her ancestor's heart was broken - and the other has a hobby of breaking hearts herself for the same reason. And given their resemblance to said ancestors . . .


. . . Do you suppose that's what that one subordinate was trying to tell Primula, before she hung up?

[Kieran]

Avalon Castle, Phantasmagoria Island (Grail Works. Ltd. Headquarters)
Beyond the boundaries of time and space








Primula chuckled; the sound being too low to be classified as a “giggle,” even if it would have been more appropriate from someone of her appearance.

“The twins never really changed, did they . . .?” she murmured wistfully, almost to herself.

“Twins?” Shirou queried, with a confused expression.

Primula explained, in brief, which made much more sense of the scene that the assembled Works personnel had just witnessed—even as Ilya fought a sense of inadequacy as a big sister. She would sacrifice herself for her Onii-chan, sure (though she privately admitted that hadn’t always been the case)—but even she didn’t think she’d have done so in utero . . . Of the rest of them who were sisters, Rin looked pained, while Akiha-san, who had made a similar sacrifice, looked sympathetic; and Kohaku-san, who was arguably the closest parallel to the girl, was solemn-faced (and considering her usual “cheerful, but unreadable” air, that was impressive, Ilya thought).

Probably to change the subject, as much as out of curiosity, Rin asked, “So he ended up marrying one of them? Or both, I guess, considering the situation . . .?”

“Your premise is a bit flawed,” the violet-eyed homunculus said. “Firstly, because do you really think, having worked with you, he’d be content to let Kikyou remain a prisoner in her sister’s body . . .?”

More than one of them nodded in acknowledgement of the point, even as Rin prompted, “And secondly?”

Because of course, with the way Primula had phrased things, there had to be at least one other point—

Primula flashed that tiny smile again as she said flatly, “The World of the Gods is polygamous.”

“WHAT?!” came from several throats.

Ilya, tempted though she was to join the outburst, instead whipped around to focus on Shirou. Had the mention of that sparked anything . . .?

. . . No, she decided at last, he at least seemed oblivious to the possibility. Not that she, at least, intended to let him take an escape like that; but Ilya also didn’t rule out the idea that it might occur to him later, or that one of the others might use it as a bargaining chip. For example, Rin seemed inclined to share with Saber, based on certain events during the Holy Grail War; she also seemed guilty enough to potentially include Sakura (though Ilya suspected she might yield to her younger sister outright, if it came to that) . . .

Rider’s derisive snort cut through the Grail spirit’s musings, as the Gorgon-turned-Heroic Spirit remarked venomously, “As should come as no surprise . . .”

Given the alleged proclivities of her associated pantheon in popular culture (regardless of its relation to actual events, of course), Ilya could understand why she might think that way.

“It would not solve the entire situation, regardless,” Saber interjected, with the air of confidence that only someone who knows what they’re talking about could have. “Even if that state of affairs could be invoked to settle things amongst his divine suitors, and his human ones could be convinced to both be accepted by it and accept it themselves—no small feat,” she added quickly, “there remains a third faction unaccounted for.

“After all,” the former monarch continued, “the ‘Devil’ princesses are potential sovereigns in their own right, of holdings which potentially equal those of the World of the Gods—to engage in such an arrangement would be to submit their world to the rulership of the Gods.”

Saber fixed Primula with a glance. “And wars have been declared for far lesser slights than the refusal of a princess’ hand in marriage . . .”

“Spoilers,” Primula said in a sing-song voice, in a deliberate manner that implied she was quoting or imitating someone (or something) else, though Ilya had no idea of the original source. “Though I’ll say that they while things sometimes got complicated, they managed to avoid that much, obviously.”

“An impressive feat,” Saber remarked, and Ilya found herself agreeing. “Especially with no less than four princesses involved—and two sets of identical twins, at that.”

For only the second time since they’d been acquainted, Ilya saw Primula taken aback.

“Wha—oh,” In the blink of an eye, Primula descended from shock into melancholy. “. . . Lycoris-nee wasn’t a princess, really—and she wasn’t exactly a twin, either . . . Like I said, things got complicated, at points.”

Now it was Saber’s turn to blink, taken aback.

“She certainly looks it,” the knight remarked, pointing at the image Ilya was displaying for emphasis.

Primula followed her movement—and froze.

“. . . WHAT?!”







Koyo Town, Japan
June 13, 2004








“Do you remember the day we met? When you saw me singing in the park . . .? That was . . . A requiem.”

Maybe not exactly Nerine’s words—it had been a long time since he’d seen that particular episode, and Rin didn’t care to burn Essence to recall the precise quote—but it was close enough for him to be remember what kind of situation he’d be walking into. Nerine would be trying her best to suppress herself in order to fulfill Lycoris’ dream; her way of doing penance for the sacrifice that had cost the other girl her life. Granted, he had never quite understood how Nerine meant her resolution to “live as Lycoris” to work—Lycoris was much more extroverted than she was, after all—but Nerine would try, nonetheless . . .

And drive herself half-crazy in the process.

After all, Nerine was shy; in fact, he’d go so far as to call the game version timid. Putting herself out there to fulfill Lycoris’ love was not something that came easily to Nerine. And while the canon Rin might be somewhat passive (read: “wishy-washy,” or “spineless”), as anime and visual novel protagonists of his era tended to be, it was exactly the sort of approach needed to make her feel comfortable.

Was it any wonder, then, that Nerine had managed to fall in love with Rin—or that the conflict regarding the “selfishness” of indulging her feelings over Lycoris’ drove her to consider suicide . . .?

Like all of the female characters in Shuffle!, Nerine was a lot more complicated (and more fragile) than she seemed, and as such, she would need very careful handling. Like Kaede, Nerine was carrying around a lot of self-loathing; but if Kaede did so because of the things she’d done, in hurt and childish ignorance, then Nerine’s were because of what thought she’d done, without considering the larger circumstances—or simply because she’d loved Lycoris that much.

Not even Primula actually blamed Nerine, and if anyone other than Lycoris had the right . . .

Rin considered that thought for a moment, before he finally shook his head. No, not even Lycoris had blamed Nerine, when the opportunity had arisen (though only people who’d played Tick! Tack! very carefully and/or thoroughly would know that) but then, Lycoris always had been a sweetheart—

He stopped in mid-step at the sudden clenching in his chest, needing a minute to catch his breath and his focus. Eight years, and her loss still hurt, still summoned black fury, eager to lash out at those who were responsible for it, though it would eagerly ravage him in their place . . .

With an effort, he reminded himself forcefully, This will not help Nerine—and if you don’t help her, then Lycoris really did die for nothing!

The admonishment had its usual, albeit gradual effect, and Rin found his centre again. After a moment, he resumed walking, musing on the situation as he did.

No matter what I do, it’s not going to be an easy fix; Kaede took years, and actual therapy—and I have to assume that a father who loves his daughter as much as Forbesii does would have tried that . . .

Although it had to be admitted that a guy who told his daughter that maid outfits were ceremonial uniforms worn by women to welcome very important men had to be considered dubious—and Rin didn’t even want to guess how he’d gotten her into the catgirl outfit . . .

(Did he appreciate the view? Of course. Rin was old, not dead; and dealing with teenaged hormones to boot. But there were boundaries of good taste one did not cross, and sometimes the King of the Devils really needed to look behind him—sometimes far, far behind him . . .)

Rin sighed. Short of actually committing to “Nerine’s route,” he couldn’t think of a solution—and unlike with the canon Rin, there was no guarantee that that actually would be one . . . Although, that also presumed that circumstances hadn’t changed to the same degree as they seemed to have with Sia and Kikyou . . .

Did a few letters and an extra in-person meeting really make that much difference?

If so, that made their silence over the six months or so since the Gate had reopened that much more puzzl—

Rin froze as he came within view of the park.

As he’d more than half-expected, Nerine was on the swing Lycoris had used, so long ago. She was garbed in a butter-yellow sundress with black bordering stitched into it, eye-catching enough that he could see it from this distance—and nearly as striking as the pale blue of her hair. To his surprise, she wasn’t singing—though given that Rin had pushed himself to get here quickly, perhaps he was ahead of schedule . . .?

All of that would’ve been reasonable, except for the fact that Nerine wasn’t alone.

Standing off to her side, head bent in conversation with the seated girl, was another Devil girl in yellow—perhaps closer to “canary” in shade than the hue of Nerine’s dress, but he couldn’t be sure. What he could see was that the girl had hair which was a match for Nerine’s—

[Perception Excellency]

. . . And then Rin took a closer look, and all hope that Lycoris had somehow survived, in defiance of all possible odds, was swiftly and brutally slaughtered.

Her hair wasn’t a match to Nerine’s, after all; close enough to seem it, but a lavender blue to Nerine’s sky. And studying them, he suspected that the other girl was taller than Nerine, as well (though he’d need to see Nerine standing up to be certain). Which, as a clone of Nerine, of course, Lycoris almost certainly never would be—but still, Rin tried to cling to the hope that it was her, anyways. The hair could be accomplished with dye; her height might be a matter of diet, or Lycoris’ superior magic making her healthier. After all, she wasn’t a perfect clone—the Project YGGDRASIL treatments had given her violet eyes! Or he could just be flat-out mistaken . . .

But it was when she turned, just slightly, and he could see the colour of her eyes—not only not Lycoris’ eyes, but a browned shade of red just different enough from the pure red of Nerine’s—that Rin realised that not only was she not Lycoris, but he actually knew exactly who she was . . .

Staring disbelievingly from across the street, he demanded under his breath, “What the hell are you doing here, Carnelian? And HOW . . . ?!”

It was only after the exclamation had left his lips that Rin realised it had been louder than he’d intended—and if either of those two had actually managed to hear that (which, with ears like theirs, was more than likely) . . . Well, then an already-difficult-to-handle situation was liable to become entirely impossible.

. . . Why—oh why—does my mouth always pick the worst times to work faster than my brain . . .?

[Xamusel]

This was funny, but I have to ask... who the heck is Carnelian, anyway?

[Kieran]

Something that would (or will) be revealed in the next snippet - though seeing as I seem to have missed posting HALF of it, I can understand the confusion . . . Read it again, and perhaps you'll find a hint . . .?

(And sorry about that - I didn't realise I was THAT tired last night. )

[Xamusel]

It's fine... I like it a lot better now.

[Arbitrarity]

Well that's terrifying. You were suggesting Tick! Tack! and instead we have Episode 2? That's... yep, definitely disruptive to the timeline. And it's managed to get Rin to break character? He's rattled. I really like the depiction of Rin coping with his trauma. Definitely a good reminder that everything isn't sunshine and rainbows there. Definitely looking forward to what's coming, even if I have absolutely no idea what it will look like.

I enjoy the Grail Works interludes, though I feel like they might benefit from having fewer people in the room. You can only focus on so many characters at once, so there are a few characters with topical and interesting reactions, and everyone else is just... standing around and reacting roughly homogeneously? It feels weirdly bland because I can't actually remember/visualize everyone in the room. It would probably be a bit contrived to just pick the exact set of people that are relevant to react to each moment, but people need to sleep, eat, shop, unwind, or just outright get bored, so there are a few possible justifications to limit the cast. Also, the absence of people can be useful for drawing out specific reactions. Ilya is probably somewhat limited by Shirou's presence, for example.
(also woo, image links!)

[Kieran]

It's fine... I like it a lot better now.

Thank you. And again, sorry - and if you haven't worked it out yet, Carnelian is from Shuffle! Episode 2 . . . Though as stated, what she's doing there, and how, is yet to be revealed.

Well that's terrifying. You were suggesting Tick! Tack! and instead we have Episode 2? That's... yep, definitely disruptive to the timeline.

Just a little - and yet, going by the mechanism of Tick! Tack!, theoretically possible!

(Granted, that game went back twenty-ish years instead a hundred, but . . .)

. . . I was tempted to use Tick! Tack! (not least because it's the game I actually own, of course), but that would require locking myself into the Nerine route, full stop - and since Rin is presently attempting to avoid romantic entanglements except as a last resort, that wouldn't make sense. Besides, for all I know you guys might wind up preferring Sia, Kikyou, or one of the others . . .

But given Carnelian's backstory and general goals? If she had the ability to go back and change things, I think she almost certainly would - though whether she'd aim to matchmake Rin and Nerine, or seduce Rin and crush him for refusing Nerine, I couldn't say for sure . . .

Of course, there's also the possibility, given the existence of the Gate (and previously-canon-acknowledged existence of parallel worlds), that this isn't her past. Really, given that, for her to exist as canon, "The Great Collapse" and several other things would've had to have happened, that might almost make more sense.

And it's managed to get Rin to break character? He's rattled.

Yeah - and he can only hope that neither of them heard him . . .

I really like the depiction of Rin coping with his trauma. Definitely a good reminder that everything isn't sunshine and rainbows there.

Which it isn't - though I'll admit the anime did a nice job of striking a balance.

Definitely looking forward to what's coming, even if I have absolutely no idea what it will look like.

Nor do I, yet - and really, at the rate I'm going, this really will become its own story . . .

I enjoy the Grail Works interludes, though I feel like they might benefit from having fewer people in the room. You can only focus on so many characters at once, so there are a few characters with topical and interesting reactions, and everyone else is just... standing around and reacting roughly homogeneously? It feels weirdly bland because I can't actually remember/visualize everyone in the room.

That's fair. Part of it is that I'm not sure who would best suit, so I'm just throwing around appearances as I need them - which is sloppy, I know, but . . . *Shrugs*

It would probably be a bit contrived to just pick the exact set of people that are relevant to react to each moment, but people need to sleep, eat, shop, unwind, or just outright get bored, so there are a few possible justifications to limit the cast. Also, the absence of people can be useful for drawing out specific reactions. Ilya is probably somewhat limited by Shirou's presence, for example.

Very true, and possibly . . .

(also woo, image links!)

Yes - and I caught it in time, this time!

. . . But can you see why I have issues with the idea - despite its being presented as canon - that Carnelian was adopted . . .?

[Arbitrarity]

. . . I was tempted to use Tick! Tack! (not least because it's the game I actually own, of course), but that would require locking myself into the Nerine route, full stop - and since Rin is presently attempting to avoid romantic entanglements except as a last resort, that wouldn't make sense. Besides, for all I know you guys might wind up preferring Sia, Kikyou, or one of the others . . .

But given Carnelian's backstory and general goals? If she had the ability to go back and change things, I think she almost certainly would - though whether she'd aim to matchmake Rin and Nerine, or seduce Rin and crush him for refusing Nerine, I couldn't say for sure . . .

She does seem quite... malicious, from the wiki description. At the very least, extremely tsundere.

Of course, there's also the possibility, given the existence of the Gate (and previously-canon-acknowledged existence of parallel worlds), that this isn't her past. Really, given that, for her to exist as canon, "The Great Collapse" and several other things would've had to have happened, that might almost make more sense.

Ah, so she's not just in the past, she's possibly in the wrong past. I bet EMIYA has some experience with this sort of fun.

Yeah - and he can only hope that neither of them heard him . . .

Oh, from the quotation marks and emphasis, I took at as "speaking tone" rather than "muttering to himself", that it wasn't intended to be heard wasn't obvious to me.

That's fair. Part of it is that I'm not sure who would best suit, so I'm just throwing around appearances as I need them - which is sloppy, I know, but . . . *Shrugs*

Well, you definitely seem to notice certain cast members have background-relevant interjections, with Saber and Rider there. This would be a bit easier if time was more obviously passing for the Works, it's not really clear how fast they're jumping along the timeline. Since Ilya is mostly in control of that, with Primula presumably giving some input... hm. Given how much of a fan Primula seems to be, I can definitely see her focusing on amusingly inconsequential minutiae ("I want a frame-by-frame of that catch!") to a degree that drives off some. Or they might have to run closer to real-time now that the game is officially afoot (just because there are more relevant interactions for them to watch), so more time will probably pass for the Works.

I guess the other thing that feels odd is that this is very... gossipy? voyeuristic? for some members of the Works, and I don't see a strong motivation for them to stay there, because there are no urgent interactions that require them. Although that omake implies they may be motivated by scientific curiosity, of course. Can Ilya rebroadcast? Does the Works have a television?

. . . But can you see why I have issues with the idea - despite its being presented as canon - that Carnelian was adopted . . .?

Just visually? Reasonable, if devils have a lot of variety. I can imagine they might try to adopt someone who looks like the rest of the family, but I don't really know enough about the circumstances around her adoption to say if that's applicable.

[Kieran]

She does seem quite... malicious, from the wiki description. At the very least, extremely tsundere.

Quite - and yet, the only review on the game that I can find notes that she is "a seductive young woman who has horrible characterization in the common route (if you read the official character profiles and compare them to the actual heroine in the game, there are almost no similarities)."

. . . Heaven only knows what that means.

Ah, so she's not just in the past, she's possibly in the wrong past. I bet EMIYA has some experience with this sort of fun.

Indeed - which could be interesting, as well.

Oh, from the quotation marks and emphasis, I took at as "speaking tone" rather than "muttering to himself", that it wasn't intended to be heard wasn't obvious to me.

Apologies - I will try to rectify that in the morning. But there could still be a chance he was overheard - I have to imagine ears designed like that aren't solely decorative . . .

Edit: And fixed!

Well, you definitely seem to notice certain cast members have background-relevant interjections, with Saber and Rider there. This would be a bit easier if time was more obviously passing for the Works, it's not really clear how fast they're jumping along the timeline. Since Ilya is mostly in control of that, with Primula presumably giving some input... hm. Given how much of a fan Primula seems to be, I can definitely see her focusing on amusingly inconsequential minutiae ("I want a frame-by-frame of that catch!") to a degree that drives off some. Or they might have to run closer to real-time now that the game is officially afoot (just because there are more relevant interactions for them to watch), so more time will probably pass for the Works.

You're not wrong.

I guess the other thing that feels odd is that this is very... gossipy? voyeuristic? for some members of the Works, and I don't see a strong motivation for them to stay there, because there are no urgent interactions that require them. Although that omake implies they may be motivated by scientific curiosity, of course. Can Ilya rebroadcast? Does the Works have a television?

Well, I seem to recall Shiki having to fight Akiha for one - and Rin's not exactly more technically inclined . . . Kohaku almost certainly does, though - how else would she play her games?

(Console games, of course - it's not like she plays any other type, after all. )

Just visually? Reasonable, if devils have a lot of variety. I can imagine they might try to adopt someone who looks like the rest of the family, but I don't really know enough about the circumstances around her adoption to say if that's applicable.

Nor do I . . . It just irks me that they copied Nerine that closely, and tried to pass Carnelian off as adopted. Lithia (her divine counterpart) is even worse, really - the resemblance to Sia is really close - but at least she's written in as Sia's (great-)niece . . .

[Kieran]

. . . And on an entirely different note (more or less) . . .

An issue I've been having with using a Lunar Exalt as a character is the temptation to bring in a Solar to pair him with. Even leaving aside the issues that explaining the existence of a Solar Exaltation has, not to mention their general power scale, most of those characters (meaning TYPE-MOON ones, so it's at least kind of on-theme) best suited to one are difficult narratively . . .

For example, Laeticia or even Caren Ortensia would be wonderful Zenith Castes, I think - but both are too devout to Christianity to consider worshipping the Unconquered Sun, never mind Caren's connections to the Church as an organisation. Ciel or even Fujino, at a stretch, might be different, but . . . Likewise, most of those who'd qualify for the Twilight Caste - mages, artisans, scholars, etc. - are members of the Clock Tower . . . And the warrior, assassin or diplomats I know of are Heroic Spirits; an Exaltation is kind of redundant.

. . . Which makes Sin-Eater the (mostly) more palatable option, but a TYPE-MOON-flavoured geist is not easy to get a hold of. Little Red Riding Hood, obviously, fits best - but figuring out whom else might work, and how, is tricky; at least, in either their geist identity, powers, or Threshold . . .

Fujino Asagami (again) for example, could be either among The Stricken (death by illness) or The Silent (death by deprivation); given her general character arc, Rage as a Manifestation makes sense . . . But for which Keys? Cold Wind, maybe, given her association with rain - but it's "warm summer" rain, not the freezing chill of that Elemental Key. And what form would her geist identity take . . .? I could swing, say, Jeanne as "The Burning Maiden" (if she wasn't already a Heroic Spirit, and all) - but Fujino doesn't exactly have a concrete set of traits that suggests an alter-ego . . .

And just about anyone else in TYPE-MOON I can think of (who's dead, mind you) is even less well-defined . . .


I'm open to opinions and/or suggestions.

[Xamusel]

...Little Red Riding Hood? She's a Servant, right?

[Kieran]

Not quite - she is, however, canon.

[Xamusel]

True enough. I hope that she gets a better ending with you writing her out.

Speaking of writing, I finished a short story, and I'm waiting on the people I submitted to for an idea if it's rejected or accepted. It'll be $1,450 if accepted (at ten pennies a word).

[Kieran]

Nice to hear - I wish you luck!

[Arbitrarity]

An issue I've been having with using a Lunar Exalt as a character is the temptation to bring in a Solar to pair him with. Even leaving aside the issues that explaining the existence of a Solar Exaltation has, not to mention their general power scale, most of those characters (meaning TYPE-MOON ones, so it's at least kind of on-theme) best suited to one are difficult narratively . . .

Definitely a temptation, given how they're tied together in lore. Lunars often have Solar partners in one way or another. Given the unusual explanation for Godafrid's existence, you could forego that, but it's still tempting.

For example, Laeticia or even Caren Ortensia would be wonderful Zenith Castes, I think - but both are too devout to Christianity to consider worshipping the Unconquered Sun, never mind Caren's connections to the Church as an organisation. Ciel or even Fujino, at a stretch, might be different, but . . .

I haven't actually played Exalted or read a full sourcebook, but I'm a bit surprised that Solars actually worship the Unconquered Sun, I never quite got that impression. It seems to me like in this sort of setting, it would be entirely reasonable to interpret these powers through the lens of their existing faith, and honestly kind of appropriate.

Likewise, most of those who'd qualify for the Twilight Caste - mages, artisans, scholars, etc. - are members of the Clock Tower . . .

And you presumably don't want to mess with Rin/Sakura/Shirou, since they're part of the shared setting, so that leaves you with a bunch of people who the Works doesn't want knowing about them.

And the warrior, assassin or diplomats I know of are Heroic Spirits; an Exaltation is kind of redundant.

Redundant in power terms, but narratively, there's some room, I think. XX comes to mind in this case, though admittedly, from her perspective, Godafrid is much more like a Sidereal. Karna is the other obvious one, but he's a bit harder to work in.

. . . Which makes Sin-Eater the (mostly) more palatable option, but a TYPE-MOON-flavoured geist is not easy to get a hold of. Little Red Riding Hood, obviously, fits best - but figuring out whom else might work, and how, is tricky; at least, in either their geist identity, powers, or Threshold . . .

Fujino Asagami (again) for example, could be either among The Stricken (death by illness) or The Silent (death by deprivation); given her general character arc, Rage as a Manifestation makes sense . . . But for which Keys? Cold Wind, maybe, given her association with rain - but it's "warm summer" rain, not the freezing chill of that Elemental Key. And what form would her geist identity take . . .? I could swing, say, Jeanne as "The Burning Maiden" (if she wasn't already a Heroic Spirit, and all) - but Fujino doesn't exactly have a concrete set of traits that suggests an alter-ego . . .

And just about anyone else in TYPE-MOON I can think of (who's dead, mind you) is even less well-defined . . .

Kirie Fujō (KnK 1, the rooftop ghost) would obviously fit Silent/Cold Wind, though has a lot of variation in Manifestation options. Fujino herself might get some matching for Bleeding One, with Passion key, actually (given the circumstances where her powers returned).
I feel like I'm remembering Jack the Ripper's knife was recovered? She seems like a possible Geist, Well/Caul Manifestations, threshold... ambiguous, Stigmata or Cold Wind for keys. If Heroic Spirit takes people off the table, then maybe that's less of an option, but given they actually have the knife, and Jack's... unusual ontological circumstances, that feels like an opportunity to bend some rules. This also somewhat applies to Nero, but she's considerably less Geist-flavored.

[Kieran]

Definitely a temptation, given how they're tied together in lore. Lunars often have Solar partners in one way or another. Given the unusual explanation for Godafrid's existence, you could forego that, but it's still tempting.

Yes - and for someone like Laeticia (or Ayako, even), with no powers to defend themselves, it's a way to deal with that issue.

I haven't actually played Exalted or read a full sourcebook, but I'm a bit surprised that Solars actually worship the Unconquered Sun, I never quite got that impression.

"The Zenith Caste are the priests and rulers who acted on behalf of the Unconquered Sun. In the First Age, the Pillars of the Sun acted as mediators between the people of the Realm and the celestial entities," to quote the wiki; And I admit I haven't done the former, either - but I have done the latter, and it matches up.

(Hm - I have a sudden urge to revisit Third Edition, just in case . . .)

It seems to me like in this sort of setting, it would be entirely reasonable to interpret these powers through the lens of their existing faith, and honestly kind of appropriate.

Possibly - let me check the 3E book and get back to you on that.

And you presumably don't want to mess with Rin/Sakura/Shirou, since they're part of the shared setting, so that leaves you with a bunch of people who the Works doesn't want knowing about them.

Yes - which is a genuine pity, because several of those people could benefit; given an Exaltation's healing nature, both Fiore or F/GO's Olga Marie would certainly profit by it. For that matter, so might Mash, or any homunculus - or Fujino Asagami, even Shiki Ryogi (which would be overkill, I admit, but, given her near-death experiences) . . .!

Or Sacchin, Sion, Riesbyfe However-It's-Spelled - even going Abyssal Exalt might fit their theme (or, say, Manaka Sajyou's) . . .

Redundant in power terms, but narratively, there's some room, I think. XX comes to mind in this case, though admittedly, from her perspective, Godafrid is much more like a Sidereal.

Which I could work with, if a 3E Sidereal book existed yet . . .

Karna is the other obvious one, but he's a bit harder to work in.

Or just about anyone with a "sun" theme - but yes.

Kirie Fujō (KnK 1, the rooftop ghost) would obviously fit Silent/Cold Wind, though has a lot of variation in Manifestation options.

I did consider her - she's very much the obvious choice, eh? - but upon realising that she shares a seiyuu with Kiara . . . *Shudders* . . . That masochistic, I am not.

Fujino herself might get some matching for Bleeding One, with Passion key, actually (given the circumstances where her powers returned).

Very true - it's just figuring out how to redesign her . . . Geists, the rulebook assures you, are very much not human; they were, but became something else in their ascension. Knowing their original names and such can help a Sin-Eater's Synergy (balance the connection between them), but expecting them to be just as they were, as humans . . .

A recent episode of Nancy Drew tackled something similar: effectively an unbound (and really angry) geist known as "The Aglaeca," who was once a woman named Odette:







It's why Red Riding Hood works, really; because she looks like a geist ought to, as they described - and given how vague/contradictory her backstory is, I have an idea to expand on who she might have been . . . And I have to wonder if even using another TYPE-MOON character is wise, because they're not liable to be recognisable (at least, initally).

I feel like I'm remembering Jack the Ripper's knife was recovered?

You do.

She seems like a possible Geist, Well/Caul Manifestations, threshold... ambiguous, Stigmata or Cold Wind for keys.

You're not wrong, but she's more RB's favourite than mine . . .

If Heroic Spirit takes people off the table, then maybe that's less of an option, but given they actually have the knife, and Jack's... unusual ontological circumstances, that feels like an opportunity to bend some rules. This also somewhat applies to Nero, but she's considerably less Geist-flavored.

All good points.

[Kieran]

Sometime after the Great Holy Grail War
Unknown place, unknown time








It was the pain that woke him—a sudden spasm of his body, brought on by a white-hot jolt which sizzled along his nerves until it left the impression of being a full-body bruise, at least. It wasn’t his worst pain—he thought—but it was definitely something that caught his attention.

. . . Eventually, Frid realised that he was still alive—he was Frid, wasn’t he? Or was he Kurai, or—?

Hang on . . .

Hurt too much to want to move, but I still can—

He cracked an eyelid open experimentally, shutting it almost immediately after acquiring a view of his hand.

Skin’s paler than Kurai, and arm’s more muscular than me, so Frid’s at least a decent bet . . . Assuming that wasn’t a hallucination or dream, anyway.


God knew, the whole “Grail Works” thing seemed like the kind of thing his subconscious would come up with, never mind the haziness of his more recent memories.

A quick scrub of his face with one palm (well “quick” for someone moving with literally agonising slowness) revealed no glasses or tangibly inhuman features. Granted, he wouldn’t necessarily feel moonsilver tattoos, for example, but pointed ears and such were easy to check for.

His arm dropped to one side, and he closed his eyes against a sudden wave of dizziness. It felt like his insides had been hollowed, the void inside was dragging his mind spiralling down into oblivion . . .

Head rush, a sardonic whisper in the back of his mind murmured. It was the standard response in his family when light-headedness struck; usually as a result of standing up too quickly from a crouch or bending over, causing the edges of his vision to blur, as well.

And given that he was presently horizontal, Frid fuzzily thought that was a bad sign. He hadn’t felt this awful since his last bout with the flu, and this was like he’d slammed into concrete going full-tilt on top of that; what the hell had happened . . .?

And if he curled up and kept his eyes closed, would it just go away?

. . . The answer, it seemed, was a resounding NO, as an attempt to do just that sent a lightning bolt his spine, searing it into jagged, burning shards—or at least, that was what it felt like.

“What hit me . . .?”

His voice was weak, even to his own ears, barely audible over the ringing aria of tinnitus in his head—in his mostly-delirious state, it sounded like somebody singing . . .

“. . . Welcome, to the Velvet Room—and in answer to your question, I’m afraid to say that we did.”

The man’s voice which gave that unexpected answer was nearly falsetto and eerily pitched, in a manner that seemed quite deliberate, being equal parts unsettling and gleefully excited. As Frid’s eyes shot open in surprise, he confirmed that the owner of the voice was no less so in appearance—being a pointy-eared hunchback with bloodshot, bulging eyes and a proboscis whose length and sharpness was more appropriate to a mosquito than a man.

It had been unnerving to see the man as a two-dimensional image; as an actual person, the man was downright alarming—but as it was the familiar voice, rather than the gravelly one, Frid relaxed. Despite his frightening appearance and unsettling demeanour, Igor was one of the most steadfast allies one could ask for, if you managed to catch his (or perhaps more accurately, his master’s) attention.

“I never thought to ever hear those words in person,” he said to the curator of the Velvet Room, trying to not hiss in pain as he made a genuine effort to pull himself into a seated position.

To put it mildly, his back was not happy, which made even the smallest movements agonising. And because the Velvet Room existed “between dreams and reality, mind and matter,” he was unsure whether any of his healing Charms would actually work—it depended, he supposed, on how he’d actually gotten here. He didn’t remember walking through a door (and lacked a key to open one, regardless), so he was probably dreaming; it was something he would dream of. Though whether this was the actual Velvet Room, entered via dreams, or merely a normal dream of being in the Velvet Room . . .

And now my head hurts, too—and it would be just my luck that the Velvet Room’s nature is such that I can physically hurt, regardless of whether or not I’m physically here . . .

“While I’m surprised to be here,” Frid continued after a deep breath, “it’s an honour to meet you, sir—”

The rest of Igor’s statement penetrated his pounding headache.

“. . . I’m sorry—what did you say?”

“It was a most unexpected occurrence,” Igor said, sounding only faintly apologetic. Frid couldn’t find it in himself to be upset about it, though—he’d played enough of the Persona series to know that the touch of detachment was simply the curator’s way.

“However, as you seem familiar with the Velvet Room, you are perhaps aware that nothing happens here without a purpose.”

“I am,” Frid said, after a beat—it hadn’t sounded like a question, so he’d needed to pause to realise that it was intended as such.

He was kind of at a loss to figure out what “purpose” might be served by him feeling like he’d been hit by a car again—

Oh, Goddamnit.

How off-kilter was he, not to have noticed the Room’s configuration? The limousine’s blue velvet interior was nothing if not memorable—likewise the luminescent fog, swirling like spiralling galaxies sweeping past the windows.

. . . For that matter, how had he not seen MARGARET sitting in the corner there? The lady was silent and still, and the dark blue of her coat and pumps blended with the interior, but a leggy platinum blonde in thigh-high black stockings should still have been pretty freaking OBVIOUS . . .!

“But I can’t imagine what it might be,” Frid continued.

I’m in Persona 4, for some reason—but why . . .?

Another flash at the window, as another swirl passed by, and the sight gave him the answer—as well as an urge to groan and bang his head on the three-legged table in front of Igor.

. . .The bloody FOG, of course.

Bits of memory floated back to the surface of his mind, pooling themselves such that Frid began to piece together what had led him here (if not necessarily what had brought him). He had been trying to track down the tainted Greater Grail of Trifas. Not that he’d wanted to, given that all indications were that it (or perhaps more specifically, what was left of Darnic Prestone Yggdmillennia inside of it) had been drawn into Ravenloft—but karmically, it didn’t seem like a great idea to just leave it lying around to torment people. The combination of the Servant Universe’s inherent sci-fi sentai tropes (such as conveniently available one-off equipment), Erik’s ridiculous magical super-technology, and Ilya’s ability to track things across universes had given him the means to try and do so . . .

But as much they were an inherent and integral part of the Demiplane of Dread, mist and fog were hallmarks of more than one setting.

I wasn’t keen on entering Ravenloft to begin with—but I suppose that if I had to miss my destination, I should be grateful I wound up in Persona 4, rather than, say, Dead by Daylight, Frid mused.

Neither scenario was pleasant, but the former was less hopeless, at least . . .

“Ah . . .” Igor responded to his earlier statement, seemingly unaware of (or at least, choosing not to remark upon) his thoughts. “It seems we have a guest with an intriguing destiny . . .” He trailed off into a chuckle. “My name, as you may already be aware, is Igor—I am delighted to make your acquaintance.”

He sounded genuinely so, Frid noted with no surprise, and why shouldn’t he be? This was, so far as Frid was aware, literally Igor’s entire reason for being—the chance to fulfill his purpose, therefore, should be a pleasing thing, shouldn’t it?

“As you seem to be familiar with this place,” Igor continued, “You are likely aware that it is a room that only those who are bound by a ‘contract’ may enter . . . It may be that such a fate awaits you in the near future.”

Frid considered it unlikely—he was neither Yu Narukami (or Seta Soji, for those who preferred the manga’s naming convention), nor even pretending to be. And for himself, he had no intentions of trying to get the power to use a Persona, much less the ability of the “Wild Card” that all Persona protagonists (as of the third game, anyway) had. Sure, his nature as a Lunar Exalt would likely let him mimic a Wild Card, in an Avatar Tuner: Digital Devil Saga sense—that was, by transforming into the creatures that were Personas—but that wouldn’t require the Velvet Room’s services, either . . .

“Now then,” Igor finished in a more genial tone, “why don’t you introduce yourself?”

“My apologies,” Frid said, feeling a touch of genuine regret. “I didn’t realise you didn’t already know . . . The name I’ve been using most recently is ‘Godafrid Úa Súilleabháin’—or ‘Úa Súilleabháin Godafrid’ if you prefer the Japanese naming order; I also tend to respond to ‘Frid’ for simplicity’s sake.”

“Hm . . . I see,” the curator replied. “Now, let’s take a look into your future, shall we?”

“If you wish . . .” Frid answered uncertainly.

Frankly, after dealing with the Mysterious Heroines of the Servant Universe, he was kind of done with predestination, paradoxes, and the like—but on the other hand, Igor was actually very good at this kind of thing; it was part of his function.

“Do you believe in fortune telling?” Igor asked as he laid out the Tarot cards in an array before him. “Each reading is done with the same cards, yet the result is always different . . .” He chuckled. “Life itself follows the same principles, doesn’t it?”

He flipped over a card with a gesture, but without actually touching it.

“Hm . . .” Igor mused. “The Tower in an upright position represents the immediate future. It seems that a terrible catastrophe is imminent.”

An icy chill numbed the pain in Frid’s being at those words. Though his memory felt like it was made of Swiss cheese at the moment, and it had been years since he’d played the game, read the manga or seen the anime, he knew that Igor had spoken exactly those words to the Persona 4 protagonist—which made no sense, because Frid wasn’t.

“The card representing the future beyond that is . . .” Another flip. “The Moon, in the upright position. This card represents ‘hesitation’ and ‘mystery’ . . . Very interesting, indeed.”

Yeah—the mystery being, “Exactly why am I getting Yu Narukami’s fortune when I’m not even pretending to be him?!”

“It seems you will encounter a misfortune at your destination, and a great mystery will be imposed upon you.”

Except that it wasn’t—Frid might not have finished the game, due to the emergence of his carpal tunnel syndrome, but the anime at least revealed the broad strokes of the plot. He knew who was behind everything; ergo, there was no point to putting Frid in this position, because it invalidated the trial, contest, game of powers—whatever you wanted to call it.

Igor pronounced, “In the coming days, you will enter into a contract of some sort, after which, you will return here. The coming year is a turning point in your destiny . . . If the mystery goes unsolved, your future may be forever lost.”

Except that I don’t need a year—I can “solve” the bulk of the problem in less than an hour . . .!

“My duty is to provide assistance to our guests, to ensure that does not happen,” the curator continued in a kindlier tone. He waved his hand, and the Tarot cards vanished.

“Ah!” he said. “I have neglected to introduce my assistant to you—”

“I’m well aware of Lady Margaret—sir,” Frid added the last word hastily, but was intent on seizing back control of things, regardless. “She and her siblings, much like yourself, are held in high regard where I’m from.”

(And probably more so, in all honesty—Igor might be the Velvet Room’s longest-running resident throughout the series, but the attendants, no matter their identity, were all much prettier.)

The lady in question blinked, eyes widening slightly and her mouth opening as if to speak—but she halted, visibly waiting on her master’s permission.

For himself, Igor paused, an eyebrow rising. “Indeed? How curious.”

“Sir, while I deeply appreciate both your hospitality and your efforts, I fear that either you or someone else involved is making a grave error,” Frid said earnestly. “I’m not your intended guest, and I can’t serve in the capacity you’re looking for. You spoke of a mystery, but I already know its answer; there is no point to my becoming embroiled in it.”

“And yet, you claimed to understand that nothing happens in this Room without purpose,” Igor countered in a knowing tone.

“We shall attend to the details another time. Until then, farewell . . .”

As the lightness that heralded lucidity and waking tugged at his consciousness, Frid had time for one final thought before the Velvet Room vanished from his awareness.

In the words of Austin from Game Theory, this makes NO. GOD. DAMN. SENSE . . .!










Writer’s Notes: As you might be able to guess, I’m in a “Persona mood”—they strike every year or so (more often, if there’s a new game about). I was torn between P4 and P5 for this—for multiple reasons, not least of which was not wanting to copy a really good fic already here (and which updated recently)—but ultimately chose the former, just so I could do the following . . .



Omake – Oh, That’s What “La-” Means . . . Wait, WHAT?!









After much deliberation, Frid had decided to try summoning a Servant.

It wasn’t an easy choice—after all, he had no idea whether he’d connect to the Ilya he knew, or the one of the “present” (which was, of course, the future), and he’d really had enough of time-travel issues (and the Mysterious Heroines who created them) . . . But he was feeling more than a little adrift, right now, and some backup he could tell the full story to would be much appreciated.

“—O Guardian of the Balance!”

The light flared, clearing to reveal a teenaged Japanese girl in something that looked like a cross between a shrine priestess’ outfit and a magical girl’s, holding a long polearm. Her eyes were closed, head bowed in a formal, submissive pose—when she spoke, her voice was surprisingly deep for her small size.

“Servant Lancer, Kusumi Erice, has answered the summons,” she intoned, the very resonance of her voice lending it an ominous air. Straightening, she opened her eyes to reveal deep pools of blue and continued, “And I a-ack!”

Her eyes bulged as they set upon Frid, the words almost literally seeming to catch in her throat—before her serious expression lapsed into one of annoyance that made her nature as a teenage girl very clear.

“Really?! You couldn’t have just called my cell?” she snapped. “StupidjerkIhateyou—I was looking forward to meeting Heroic Spirits, even if it was in a Holy Grail War . . .!”

While Frid didn’t understand the entire context of what she was saying, he did recognise her—the heroine of Fate/requiem, who was somehow, in that continuity, the daughter of Izanami . . .

Which her unexpected burst of “Angrish” cemented perfectly; it made her similarities to Marie so clear that he had to laugh.

The Lancer scowled, slamming the butt of her weapon against the ground angrily. “Take this seriously—I am not happy about being jerked around like this, Dad!”

She blinked, surprise suddenly showing on her features. “Hey, are you OK? You look awfully pale all of a—DAD?!”

The ground rushed up to meet Frid, but the darkness beat it there . . .

[Arbitrarity]

Izanami... does show up in the anime, so Godafrid probably knows about that. While he trivially knows about Adachi, he's likely to either encounter the problem of the world changing slightly to frustrate his knowledge, or the more insidious problem of needing events to not change too much. Social Links are apparently crucial to defeating Izanami, and without events being roughly similar, those may not develop as they do normally, so jumping straight to confrontation may not work out. Actually, his foreknowledge could make that worse, since it provides a huge lever to invalidate those Social Links if he doesn't account for how he's different from normal. We've seen that problem before in Trinity for example.

And then the omake. Waiiiit. Waaaaaaaiiiiiiit. So Izanami being analogous to Hel makes some sense. And that makes Frid Utsumi, who... we know nothing about. Okay good, he's not secretly Izanagi or something, so that doesn't need to inform the rest of the snippet. Probably. He could replace Izanagi as Yu's first Persona, but that would probably be incredibly frustrating, since Personas seem to have very limited ability to communicate, and again, disrupting the timeline is troublesome.
The possibility of his being Izanagi has a certain elegance to it, but that doesn't seem to be what we're implying here.

[Kieran]

Izanami... does show up in the anime, so Godafrid probably knows about that. While he trivially knows about Adachi, he's likely to either encounter the problem of the world changing slightly to frustrate his knowledge, or the more insidious problem of needing events to not change too much.

Yeah. I mean, he could just jump Adachi and rip his throat out - making it look like an animal attack wouldn't even be hard - but there's the issue of what, exactly, Izanami might or might not do in response. Frid might not be ready for that level of fight, yet.

Social Links are apparently crucial to defeating Izanami, and without events being roughly similar, those may develop as they do normally, so jumping straight to confrontation may not work out. Actually, his foreknowledge could make that worse, since it provides a huge lever to invalidate those Social Links if he doesn't account for how he's different from normal. We've seen that problem before in Trinity for example.

This is both the biggest issue with writing a Persona fic, and one of the primary reasons (in my mind, anyway) to do it: I am not social, or a Japanese teenager - therefore, how does my SI handle the most important mechanic of any Persona game that is simultaneously one of my biggest hurdles, barring actually being killed . . .?

Especially since, as they all involve helping the people on the other end with their problems, the Works would want him to do it?

And then the omake. Waiiiit. Waaaaaaaiiiiiiit. So Izanami being analogous to Hel makes some sense.

It at least implies that he has a thing for death goddesses . . .

And that makes Frid Utsumi, who... we know nothing about. Okay good, he's not secretly Izanagi or something, so that doesn't need to inform the rest of the snippet. Probably. He could replace Izanagi as Yu's first Persona, but that would probably be incredibly frustrating, since Personas seem to have very limited ability to communicate, and again, disrupting the timeline is troublesome.

The possibility of his being Izanagi has a certain elegance to it, but that doesn't seem to be what we're implying here.

No, not at all. Remember, she introduced herself here as Kusumi Erice; as in "Mariko Kusumi," the name that Marie adopts in the epilogue of Persona 4: The Golden - and she's definitely picked up her (presumed) mom's verbal tic, which at least implies that Erice, in calling him "Dad," means it literally . . .



. . . In honesty, I sort of think that Persona 5 might work better - but, as I said, I wanted to do the joke, so . . . *Shrugs*

[Arbitrarity]

This is both the biggest issue with writing a Persona fic, and one of the primary reasons (in my mind, anyway) to do it: I am not social, or a Japanese teenager - therefore, how does my SI handle the most important mechanic of any Persona game that is simultaneously one of my biggest hurdles, barring actually being killed . . .?

Especially since, as they all involve helping the people on the other end with their problems, the Works would want him to do it?

The really interesting part to me is definitely that people develop bonds by sharing information about themselves, and Godafrid's nature and knowledge is a big thing. The temptation to have a "ah, but did you ever really know your friend" moment seems overwhelmingly strong. Ooh, or Shadow Godafrid. Limit Break-analogous things are delicious. That seems like it could be really satisfying late in a story, but would need a ton of setup to make it work.
But yeah, in more common bonding sorts of interaction, Frid tends to fumble a bit on the side of gallantry, which works for him, but isn't really emotional vulnerability, and makes him a bit... different. That might suffice, given how Persona protagonists behave.

No, not at all. Remember, she introduced herself here as Kusumi Erice; as in "Mariko Kusumi," the name that Marie adopts in the epilogue of Persona 4: The Golden - and she's definitely picked up her (presumed) mom's verbal tic, which at least implies that Erice, in calling him "Dad," means it literally . . .

I was WONDERING why that name was different and didn't realize. And the angrish, right, and you specifically pointed out "similarities to Marie", and I forgot which Marie was contextually relevant. And I think I read things, sheesh. That definitely puts a completely different spin on what we expect to happen during the main Persona 4 plot. Oh goodness.