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Thread: Conception/Zero (Fate/Zero x Shin Megami Tensei Crossover)

  1. #21
    秩序 Order Erlkonig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Really? You consider Nasu's extremely ambiguous statement to be more important than direct canon from Zero, which Nasu explicitly approved?
    Blah blah blah Saber vs Lancer blah blah blah surpassing the speed of sound, approaching the speed of light blah blah blah

    ^ That is Urobuchi's direct canon explicitly approved ​by Nasu, btw
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    Venus Swordman Ergast's Avatar
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    AS I said, he puts priority to his plans. After all, he is Lucifer. His will of liberty is directed mainly to the whole humanity. Take into account that in SMT there is no good vs evil axis, just chaos vs order. Chaos ensures full liberty, without restriction, so at the end is the law of the strongest. Order is a magnanimous tirany, without free will. Neutrality implies a mid way, with liberty but also order and some laws to ensure that everyone can live, and it depends just in humans.

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by shiningphoenix View Post
    Rin: "I wanted Saber..."
    Archer: "What? But Archers are all insanely OP, it's like a rule or something, why would you think Sabers were better?"
    Rin: "Sabers are more molestable..."
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    Denizens of another dimension, meet Rin Tohsaka, Tsundere of Mass Destruction
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    I dont even know what Lunatique is. I assume it's terrible for the sake of argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laith View Post
    Actually Cypher advocates another thing entirely but it is related to liberty. Sorta, kinda.
    I see....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ergast View Post
    AS I said, he puts priority to his plans. After all, he is Lucifer. His will of liberty is directed mainly to the whole humanity. Take into account that in SMT there is no good vs evil axis, just chaos vs order. Chaos ensures full liberty, without restriction, so at the end is the law of the strongest. Order is a magnanimous tirany, without free will. Neutrality implies a mid way, with liberty but also order and some laws to ensure that everyone can live, and it depends just in humans.
    Oh, right, so the guy is the devil...?

    Well, that does figure, I guess....

  4. #24
    Barrier Breaker Sakuraba Haru's Avatar
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    Considering the dating of Zero... it's possible Kazuya/SMT1 can appear.
    I think it lines up around roughly. However while he can punch gods into oblivion.... he can't use magic so...

    Cipher is more appealing for me, Chaos over Order. Of course there's neutral but...
    In SMT II the neutral ending is... kind of, well weak. The world and anything holding it is gone and you wiped out the demons hierarchy.
    Oh and your cursed.

    Whereas Chaos in II pretty much makes Aleph a reknowned hero among fairies, demons, spirits that sort of thing.

    In regards to Louis and Sakura... well he would probably do two things.
    Leave her to her fate, because of his Darwinism like ideals.
    Or make her crazy powerful and only really act against her when his life is directly in danger due to, well dying hurts even if he regenerates, and if shes directly going to snatch victory from his hands.
    If Kazuya, Aleph, Hitoshura/Naoki are any indications and the Strange Journey guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
    In regards to Louis and Sakura... well he would probably do two things.
    Leave her to her fate, because of his Darwinism like ideals.
    Or make her crazy powerful and only really act against her when his life is directly in danger due to, well dying hurts even if he regenerates, and if shes directly going to snatch victory from his hands.
    If Kazuya, Aleph, Hitoshura/Naoki are any indications and the Strange Journey guy.
    Well, surely you can't apply "Darwinist ideals" to a child who is too young to have any chance to stand up for herself. Children always need their parents to look after them at that age....

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    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Well, surely you can't apply "Darwinist ideals" to a child who is too young to have any chance to stand up for herself. Children always need their parents to look after them at that age....
    Really? There are quite a few examples of parents eating their young children or killing them, or leaving them all alone nearly right after birth.
    But that's just non-human animals, right? T_T;
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycodrake View Post
    Really? There are quite a few examples of parents eating their young children or killing them, or leaving them all alone nearly right after birth.
    But that's just non-human animals, right? T_T;
    Well, yeah, but you can hardly blame the child for that, or call them "unfit".

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    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Well, yeah, but you can hardly blame the child for that, or call them "unfit".
    Isn't that what Darwinism states, though? Survival of the fittest and all? That only the strong survive and the weak die?
    Or is there some other meaning to Darwinism that actually puts worth into human lives?
    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
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  9. #29
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Well, surely you can't apply "Darwinist ideals" to a child who is too young to have any chance to stand up for herself. Children always need their parents to look after them at that age....
    Rin does quite well for herself, no? Unless you think Kirei was of any help to her whatsoever. Which is about as likely as Louis Cypher finding Sakura so adorable, or her plight so miserable, that he'll help her.

    I suspect it's more like: "save yourself or die".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycodrake View Post
    Isn't that what Darwinism states, though? Survival of the fittest and all? That only the strong survive and the weak die?
    Or is there some other meaning to Darwinism that actually puts worth into human lives?
    Yes, but Sakura isn't in any way "weak", she was just unlucky enough to be born second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevelyan View Post
    Rin does quite well for herself, no? Unless you think Kirei was of any help to her whatsoever. Which is about as likely as Louis Cypher finding Sakura so adorable, or her plight so miserable, that he'll help her.
    Rin doesn't have Zouken torturing her....

    I suspect it's more like: "save yourself or die".
    She can't "save herself"....

  11. #31
    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Yes, but Sakura isn't in any way "weak", she was just unlucky enough to be born second.
    And? I'm not saying that she's strong or weak, just that "survival of the fittest" wouldn't really care.

    Hitler justified the starvation, torture, and murder of millions because he believed in Darwinism. Strongly. Extremely strongly.
    He had no value for the human life, except when he saw them as "strong".
    ...I've been hurt the most by Darwinism. Sorry. Whatever. Haven't been in a good mood for a while now.

    And as for Sakura not being able to save herself...and? Since when did "survival of the fittest" care?
    Last edited by Lycodrake; December 19th, 2011 at 10:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
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  12. #32
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Rin doesn't have Zouken torturing her....
    That's true, but she has other hardships. As a magus, she has to torture herself. As a young girl, she has to raiser herself. As a Tohsaka, she has to be aloof and cold to the person she adores most, because that person is a Matou now.

    She can't "save herself"....
    Then why would he help her? Heaven and Hell have no intrinsic desire to save humans, in SMT. Both side merely desire obedience to their particular philosophies, their ideals. If Zouken can impose his will and Sakura can't reject it through her own power, she's got no value to Louis Cypher.

    I'm not saying Sakura shouldn't be saved. I'm saying, I don't see how or why Lucifer would be interested in doing so. If you want options for her, well, Sakura would be the poster-child for a Neutral route.

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    Barrier Breaker Sakuraba Haru's Avatar
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    That or Sakura gets super charged to God defying levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycodrake View Post
    And? I'm not saying that she's strong or weak, just that "survival of the fittest" wouldn't really care.

    Hitler justified the starvation, torture, and murder of millions because he believed in Darwinism. Strongly. Extremely strongly.
    He had no value for the human life, except when he saw them as "strong".
    Well, yeah, but then Hitler's definition of "strong" had no relationship whatsoever to reality....

    ...I've been hurt the most by Darwinism. Sorry. Whatever. Haven't been in a good mood for a while now.

    And as for Sakura not being able to save herself...and? Since when did "survival of the fittest" care?
    Well, I'm not in any way a Darwinist. I believe in Evolution, of course, because it's scientific fact, but I don't see why humans should go around trying to enforce it. If people are truly "unfit", then nothing we can do will save them and, if we can save them, then what makes them "unfit" in the first place?

    Evolution is a natural phenomenon, and we should no more try to encourage it than we encourage Tsunamis or volcanic eruptions. If someone said that it is wrong for us to have early warning systems for Tsunamis, they'd be laughed at, so why shouldn't we fight evolution in the same manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevelyan View Post
    That's true, but she has other hardships. As a magus, she has to torture herself. As a young girl, she has to raiser herself. As a Tohsaka, she has to be aloof and cold to the person she adores most, because that person is a Matou now.
    Yeah, of course, but she is at least free. Any restrictions and torments she is placed under are entirely self-inflicted.

    Then why would he help her? Heaven and Hell have no intrinsic desire to save humans, in SMT. Both side merely desire obedience to their particular philosophies, their ideals. If Zouken can impose his will and Sakura can't reject it through her own power, she's got no value to Louis Cypher.
    Because he desires freedom, and Sakura is not free.

    But, then, I guess I have a different idea of "freedom" and "chaos" to him. Because my idea doesn't consider a four-year-old child under the control of a monster who can kill her at a whim to be free in any way, shape or form, and nor is leaving her there in any way a "chaotic" act (in fact, it's a highly lawful act).

    I'm not saying Sakura shouldn't be saved. I'm saying, I don't see how or why Lucifer would be interested in doing so. If you want options for her, well, Sakura would be the poster-child for a Neutral route.
    Well, I can understand that reasoning. Although, given that Kariya seems to have just shown up at the door, I have a suspicion that he's going to be grabbing her and running like hell....

  15. #35
    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Well, I'm not in any way a Darwinist. I believe in Evolution, of course, because it's scientific fact, but I don't see why humans should go around trying to enforce it. If people are truly "unfit", then nothing we can do will save them and, if we can save them, then what makes them "unfit" in the first place?

    Evolution is a natural phenomenon, and we should no more try to encourage it than we encourage Tsunamis or volcanic eruptions. If someone said that it is wrong for us to have early warning systems for Tsunamis, they'd be laughed at, so why shouldn't we fight evolution in the same manner?
    "Unfit" still means that Darwinism and Evolution dictate that they won't live well, or at least live long.

    So, Sakura in the state she was at a young age and still with Zouken-worms in her, would be considered "unfit". As such, why would it matter what happened to her? After all, there are countless other humans around, one doesn't matter in an Evolutionary stand point...

    ...and Evolution as "scientific fact" hasn't explained anything to me. But that might just be what I believe. Whatever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycodrake View Post
    "Unfit" still means that Darwinism and Evolution dictate that they won't live well, or at least live long.
    No, it means that they are genetically unsuited to their environment and, thus, are less likely than normal to pass on their genes. You can be "unfit" and still live a long life, and you can be fit and die as a child. Statistically speaking, an "unfit" organism is less likely to pass their genes on and, thus, more likely to either die or fail to reproduce, but that does not mean that all "unfit" organisms will fail or that all "fit" organisms will succeed.

    So, Sakura in the state she was at a young age and still with Zouken-worms in her, would be considered "unfit". As such, why would it matter what happened to her? After all, there are countless other humans around, one doesn't matter in an Evolutionary stand point...
    A child isn't "unfit" just because their parents abuse or abandon them. Indeed, if anyone is "unfit" in this case, it's her parents for leaving their child in such a horrible situation.

    ...and Evolution as "scientific fact" hasn't explained anything to me. But that might just be what I believe. Whatever.
    Erm, what do you mean?

  17. #37
    Fuckin' chicken grill!!! Kotonoha's Avatar
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    A "crone" is an old woman.

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    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    A child isn't "unfit" just because their parents abuse or abandon them. Indeed, if anyone is "unfit" in this case, it's her parents for leaving their child in such a horrible situation.

    Erm, what do you mean?
    True, Sakura isn't "unfit", but there's also the fact that, from an Evolutionary stand point, one human life doesn't really *matter*.

    I mean that I'm a creationist. That I believe that micro-evolution does happen, but not macro-evolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
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    Fuckin' chicken grill!!! Kotonoha's Avatar
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    Lycodrake noooooo! Mike is a scientist! You don't know what you're getting yourself into!

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