I think this discussion always happens because people are used to Wada's Nero and Takeuchi's Artoria, but Wada eye colors are always much brighter than Takeuchi's. When you compare both when drawn by the same artist you can see that it's not a different in brightness: both have green eyes, it's just that Artoria's is a shade closer to blue.
Spoiler:
thoughts to merit further development on a later occasion.;
* from first to last the concept of humanity is the concern which most clearly cuts across the creative output of nasu kinoko.
* humanity has a double definition. it is both adjective and noun.
* adj: the category of the human, its delineation, demarcation. what is constitutive of the human? what is a human form/way of life?
* numerous characters of nasu's works exhibit a humanity that is in some way deficient, abnormal, or otherwise called into question. frequently his plots will proceed through some kind of negotiation of the category.
* does nasu himself have a stable, consistent concept of the human which cuts across his work? probably...we can discern a kind of general outline in his early output's concern with the idea of 'nichijou', the idea of a properly constituted 'everyday life'.
* which ties his work's negotiations of the category of the human to normality, social normality, socially-constituted norms; KnK is probably where he does the most concerning characters' relations to 'normality'
* suggesting that his is a foundationally social concept of the human? cf. the work of philosopher Watsuji Tetsurou, his reading of the word 'ningen'
* must investigate further. ANYWAY
* noun: humanity the species, human-kind, homo sapiens as a phenomenon invested with a particular teleology. jinrui, as in the phrase JINRUITUEEEEEEEE
* i jest. (no i don't.)
* the work which gave Notes inc. its name is that which (for a while anyway. we'll come to that) established the ultimate teleological horizon of nasu's creations.
* i.e. that humankind's destiny - an ugly word but one i am compelled to use here - is to survive past the termination of the Earth as such. to overcome its dependence on nature. to at last detach itself from the animal character of existence which binds it to the earthly biological cycles of speciation and extinction.
* the unnatural persistence of humankind - its having survived past its appointed time of death, so to speak - is the precise background of Notes. the Aristoteles have been called to the remains of earth in order to correct this aberrant case which diverges from the norm of life in the solar system.
* whether the aristoteles ultimately succeed is left uncertain. all those troubling intimations of the Crimson Moon as the true final boss. to say nothing of V/V outright declaring, chance of victory = 0. on the other hand, the Types don't seem to have succeeded so far. we don't know what will happen in the end.
* what we do know is that Notes is a story about the extinction of the human species.
* Godo dies. This is important - so important nasu explicitly tells you in his glossary entry. he dies in the operation to take down type-saturn. the A-Rays and Liners - the posthuman descendants - will live on. but homo sapiens properly so-called is finished. it cannot survive in the grain-saturated atmosphere of earth following the death of gaia.
* one possible reading of Notes: in transcending its relation to nature (through technology), humanity overcomes the very ground condition of humanity itself.
* you can indeed survive past the death of the planet - but not as a human properly so-called.
* the question raised by this reading of notes - which is left unanswered, possibly unanswerable, I think, in V/V's final exchange with Godo - is whether or not humanity (adj) can endure beyond the death of humanity (noun)
* TODO: further develop these thoughts through Kojeve's elucidation of the post-historical animalisation/japanese 'formalisation' of humanity (both adj and noun). thingken continues
* moving on from Notes, however
* I would hazard the claim that the attitude manifested in Notes, by this reading - that which accepts, without fuss and valedictory posturing, the obsolescence of the human - is at odds with the approaches to humanity (noun) developed in nasu's more recent work, from Fate/EXTRA onwards. tonally, if in no other sense.
* today nasu's works posit humanity (noun) as a kind of abstract essence (generally embodied by $playername) destined to beat the shit out of everything that stands in its way, oo-rah, HFY
* at any cost humanity's destiny, our path to the stars, must be preserved. the motto of FGO is We Must Secure A Future For-(demonetised)
* there isn't really a place for the posthuman in this view of things. the most recent TM scenarios to bear any resemblance to the world of Notes are the lostbelts, which, as noted, are contractually bound to be destroyed, sure as a sentai villain gets destroyed. the concept of the human has become narrower, dare we say it, ossified into the nondescript normality of protagonist teams.
* now perhaps this is mostly an outcome of formal constraints. maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
* one thing's for sure. if you want a vision of the future, don't think of the land of steel, or of the archipelago from tsuki no sango.
* imagine gudao's stupid fucking face, forever.
かん汗ぎゅう牛じゅう充とう棟
Expresses the exceeding size of one's library.
Books are extremely many, loaded on an oxcart the ox will sweat.
At home piled to the ridgepole of the house, from this meaning.
Read out as 「Ushi ni ase shi, munagi ni mitsu.」
Source: 柳宗元「其為書，處則充棟宇，出則汗牛馬。」— Tang Dynasty
I don't see how Chaleda's existence doesn't allow for the creation of a post-human species to survive. Lostbelts don't fail because they become furries or eat a magic pill, but because they lose the 'human-ness' that will be necessary for humanity to grow.
I wouldn't be surprised if the tech used to make Mash ends up reference in a Notes-type work and we get some Eirei = A Ray nasu moment something something every man and woman is astarHero.
Cool story bro.
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I thought LB1 failed for exactly the reason that they were basically magical beasts more than humans.Originally Posted by Asunder
IIRC it was because the harsh environment created a humanity were only the strong were able to live.
Spoiler:
lb1 fails because its gone too far on the wrong direction and its reaching the ending
its not just 1 specific thing, its the overall circumstances
Can you honestly conceive Chaldea seeing notes and humanity going extinct and them saying "Yup, it has to be this way, good work team"? Because I can't.
Humanity (noun) or humanity (adjective)?
Even FGO does say humanity will inevitably end, so who knows?
Well we know the way it’s suppose to be thanks to Garden of Avalon To begin with I’ve always seen Notes as basically failing a self-destructive deadline of humanity being able to leave/separate from the earth. The situation of Notes is that of, like Lostbelt 1, stragglers. Gameover’s already been achieved but some people are lingering in the epilogue/bad end.
its a unfortunate and sad situation, and it makes sense that the types show up on clean up duty only in that kind of situation.
And what does Garden of Avalon say should happen?
the very mentality which sees Notes as a bad end and one to be avoided is precisely what has been engendered by the perspectives of more recent (and more popular) nasu works. people have lost any ability to think in terms that aren't cripplingly anthropocentric, humans destined to vanquish all, precisely because nasu himself has lost the ability to think in those terms
>Lostbelts don't fail because they become furries or eat a magic pill, but because they lose the 'human-ness' that will be necessary for humanity to grow.
what is human-ness? why is it necessary to growth? why does humanity NEED to grow? what is growth?
unless you can think about these questions you are not thinking seriously about where nasu's works are heading.
かん汗ぎゅう牛じゅう充とう棟
Expresses the exceeding size of one's library.
Books are extremely many, loaded on an oxcart the ox will sweat.
At home piled to the ridgepole of the house, from this meaning.
Read out as 「Ushi ni ase shi, munagi ni mitsu.」
Source: 柳宗元「其為書，處則充棟宇，出則汗牛馬。」— Tang Dynasty
I actually agree with Dullahan in a sense. I personally disagree with Nasu's current ideas that humanity must "progress" in a certain way to be human because just by moving forward through time, we are technically "progressing".
where did this "progress" thing coming from
its not "progress", its possibilities
i mean one can argue that its similar, but its actually portrayed as 2 different thing
So while I agree with a lot of what you're saying I'm a little wary of claiming that this shift began with EXTRA rather than Grand Order because EXTRA in many ways is against what you're saying. In EXTRA humanity (noun) is pretty much dead and motivationless, not dissimilar to what we can see in Tsuki no Sango. Hakuno who is arguably the most human (adjective) character in the game doesn't fit into the definition of humanity (noun). While Hakuno does beat the shit out of everything that stands in his way it's portrayed as nothing but tragic. In fact the kind of mentality you describe is ascribed to Twice, progress at all cost is his philosophy. Hakuno refutes this by claiming that humanity has the right to chose its future, even if it is one where humanity (noun) dies off. Humanity (noun and adjective) is in a very bad place during EXTRA and Hakuno doesn't make this better. As an addendum CCC is all about proving the humanity (adjective) of beings who don't fit the standards of humanity (noun) such as AI Hakuno/Sakura to the point where the true end has the "real" Hakuno who is more human (noun) be sacrificed for AI Hakuno who is more human (adjective).
I will say only one thing regarding this topic and it's that humanity is not an adjective.
I think that's just a very reductionist way to look at Nasu's themes and misses a whole lot different points being made in the process. There is some kind of missing the trees for the forest situation here.
Also these are not "Nasu's current ideas". Even the whole "meaningless immortality is bad" angle has been a thing since Tsukihime.
god, i don't know how i missed that. i needed some way to differentiate humanity as a property of individuals from humanity as a biological collective. i should have used human (noun) and (adjective) instead. my mistake
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except that i nominalise the adjective!
i should just cut out the middleman and use 人間/人類
かん汗ぎゅう牛じゅう充とう棟
Expresses the exceeding size of one's library.
Books are extremely many, loaded on an oxcart the ox will sweat.
At home piled to the ridgepole of the house, from this meaning.
Read out as 「Ushi ni ase shi, munagi ni mitsu.」
Source: 柳宗元「其為書，處則充棟宇，出則汗牛馬。」— Tang Dynasty
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