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Thread: The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

  1. #29581
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    That Tsukihime Worlds/Fate Worlds thing still doesn't jive with me. The whole Human Order Strong/Human Order Weak thing strikes me as unnecessarily complicated.

    Why can't Tsuki and the original Fate works be two slices of the same pie?

    We knew magi were a thing ever since Tsukihime, where they took a back seat to vampires and oni hybrids, so moving over to Fuyuki to explore the magi side of the moonlit world seemed like a natural progression.

    Of course, divorcing Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime seems weird to me, too. The prospect of two separate Shikis from former demon-hunting families getting the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception is so unlikely that it can be said it could never happen, but Nasu already runs on incredibly improbable events thrusting normies into supernatural shenanigans.

    I guess it can lead to cute little twists like Sion showing up FGO without her TATARI baggage, but so what? I get the feeling that fans of Character X would like to see more of the character they came to know and love rather than Character X run through Filter Y, making them a radically different person.

    It's not RUINING THE FRANCHISE, but it does make me wonder why Nasu is jumping through all of these hoops to keep his toys in their own separate toychests when Narita is having the time of his life throwing everything into the same sandbox.
    The first thing that needs to be addressed is the preexisting divide of Tsukihime and Fate as had already ossified in fandom consciousness, to wit the allocation of focus on the Church/vampire conflict and magi respectively. This was patently wrong: Fate was and always will be about Servants, with every work released under that label subordinated to that single core thematic. This was not readily apparent with only a small sample size of available works which in operating as building blocks of a unified cosmology did not yet challenge the notion of a logically consistent shared setting, but became so when the illusion of balance between the elements of this conceived shared framework of reference that was the "Nasuverse" could no longer accommodate the reality of how skewed the narrative focus of works notionally placed in that setting had become. It was no longer a matter of timelines not aligning perfectly or two Shikis unable to live under the same sky because the odds didn't work out when the moon is a supercomputer and it's a common occurrence for any random magus to set up a ritual anywhere in the world which coughs up seven or more superghosts that barely anyone can even scratch. Superghosts and supervampires being mutually exclusive is simply a codification of the simple fact that the over-development of one notional side of the coin has outstripped not just that of the other side but the capacity of the coin itself.

    What that underdeveloped other side of the coin really was can no longer be said, as it never had the chance to grow beyond its initial form and context. It is easy to say that magi "take a back seat" in Tsukihime and Kagetsu Tohya because none of the characters happen to have that be their foremost identifying quality, and similarly it can be said that Tsukihime as a work is marked by narrative interiority, predominance of the psychological element, and, of course, a self-contained, grounded, "small-scale" plot. But what must be considered is firstly that Tsukihime was written without the benefit of an existing foundation for the setting in which it took place - and consequently lacking a thematic basis for readers to be familiar with and have preconceived notions on - and so had to construct that notion by laying the groundwork for this cosmology - the rules - while providing peeks above the immediate presentation and behind the proverbial curtain to a perceived depth beyond what is seen in the work itself - the lore - while also writing a self-standing story which could become a commercial success. What we get from it is the result of trying to balance these factors in the writing process, and in that also the defining features of Nasu's own writing. Which is to say, the essential information required for the story to acquire a "mythological" background and for its events to be consistent with it - the "rules" of the work that the reader is asked to keep in mind while reading. This is nothing to characterise an entire hypothetical series of works set in the same framework by. Lest we forget, Tsukihime II was the ensemble cast that all ensemble casts ever conceived both in fanfiction and official works emulated. A clusterfuck of magi and vampires and churchies coming to a head with the most powerful characters engaging in high-octane large-scale action over world-ending stakes is about as far a sequel could get from the aforementioned description of the first installment.

    Then there is the matter of the notional pie, where a slice can have any proportion of toppings of the one or other kind. There's two ways to approach the simile:

    A storytelling perspective: the model of a unified cosmology is unsustainable insofar as the illusion of consistency in the "rules" that govern the reader's conception of a notional setting has been constructed and elevated in importance by the author and his constant snipping and trimming over the years to keep the pointy ends from sticking out of the uniformity and getting in each other's way to the point that it has become a decisive factor of not just quality but legitimacy of a given work. As the works multiply and deviate the capacity of the model to contain them all is strained beyond the point where keeping to the rules makes a parody of either them or the work itself. Dividing and keeping like with like is thus simpler, cleaner, easier; that even this partition could not contain the deviation, necessitating even more extreme rationalisations through amendments to the cosmology is a separate matter.

    A business perspective: people like the Servant topping. The Servant topping sells a lot. Pie doesn't sell a lot. We should give people more Servant toppings, but in food that sells more. What, the vampire topping? We promised to bring it back in a pie, but pies don't sell a lot. But we can't put it in another kind of food before we bring back the pie. Besides, people can't get enough of the Servant toppings. Try putting in just a little bit of the vampire topping along with the Servant toppings and see if people like it in other foods.

    Now I'm hungry.
    Last edited by Leftovers; September 26th, 2019 at 05:59 PM.

  2. #29582
    not available due to uni Wallacia's Avatar
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    Now, If only nasu can get back at DDD for at least one more time and tie it to he nasuverse, that would fantastic.
    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Arc’s real master is a boy in a school uniform

  3. #29583
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallacia View Post
    tie it to he nasuverse
    Why?

  4. #29584
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Imperial's Avatar
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    There is something to be said for one side of the coin having grown so large that any attempt to balance the two "sides" is both impossible and pointless.

    Perhaps one could accuse me of being a man-child among man-children, longing to regress to a gestational state when Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime were the nuclei of their respective stories, when only spin-offs and tie-ins like Fate/Zero and Hollow Ataraxia and Kagetsu Tohya and Plus Period existed to expand their horizons just the tiniest bit more in hypothetical dream scenarios, when Kara no Kyoukai was the mythical prototype that only the mooniest of moonruners had access to, when the announcement of a handheld game like Fate/Extra landed like a bomshell and Fate/Apocrypha was nothing more than a scuttled project relegated to the wasteland of art book minutiae.

    In other words, I'm a
    cranky old man
    filthy elitist
    whose every thought and opinion should be prefaced with an implicit BACK IN MY DAY.
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  5. #29585
    分かろうとするな、感じれ Mcjon01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Why?
    One last push to snuff out the candle of hope DDD fans have been nursing all these years
    Just end the series by having everyone die as collateral damage in a battle between servants

  6. #29586
    Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl, þonne his ellen déah... Skull's Avatar
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    They may take our money, but never our freedom desire for a DDD continuation!

    Or something to that effect.
    "Here's a bangin lil' tune about takin' on The Man!"

    (Check out my Super Special Awesome Servant Compendium here)

  7. #29587
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Ratman's Avatar
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    You say that, but Case Files feels distinctly Fate and nothing at all like Tsukihime even when it's not actually using Servants. It strongly feels like fatethink has conquered all TMthink and no other form of thinking about the setting can be imagined by its writers. This is a different writer, sure, but you'd think they'd get the pointers if they're going to use Tsukihime stuff too.

    And then to add insult to injury, it just has to use a Servant like a person that's trying to stay on a diet but at midnight sneaks into the kitchen and gorges itself on ice cream, only to pass out on the sofa with slur coming from its mouth for all to gander at in the sunday morning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallacia View Post
    Now, If only nasu can get back at DDD for at least one more time and tie it to he nasuverse, that would fantastic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Why?
    You'd be surprised by how close they are in terminology. There's nothing stopping DDD from taking place in the Nasuverse, DDDs demons and Nasuverse's demons are conceptually the same. They just manifest differently.

  8. #29588
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    even when it's not actually using Servants.
    [...]
    And then to add insult to injury, it just has to use a Servant
    el melon files is an egregious case of the spinoff people's inability to conceive of magi as a setting element at large separate from the concept of servants. consider that the series did not release under the fate/ label and had all the freedom to pursue independent narratives which it squandered in constant callbacks to holy grail wars leading to a contrivance that brought a servant to the fold anyway. of course it is a matter of marketability also but still indicative of how inextricable servants are from the "fate" side as perceived by the fandom.

    You'd be surprised by how close they are in terminology. There's nothing stopping DDD from taking place in the Nasuverse, DDDs demons and Nasuverse's demons are conceptually the same. They just manifest differently.
    well, no, that's wrong, but more pertinently why would such an integration be "fantastic". what in the world is there to possibly gain from it?

  9. #29589
    後継者 Successor Bugs's Avatar
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    Weren't HGWs supposed to be small rituals that only losers participated in, to the point where Clock Tower people weren't familiar with the concept?
    What happened to that?

  10. #29590
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    I thought Heartless suppressed information about them to the point where only important people who cared actually knew anything. Also, if that were the case, what about Kayneth? Also, pretty sure the Einzberns and Zolgen/Makiri were respected families at the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    el melon files is an egregious case of the spinoff people's inability to conceive of magi as a setting element at large separate from the concept of servants. consider that the series did not release under the fate/ label and had all the freedom to pursue independent narratives which it squandered in constant callbacks to holy grail wars leading to a contrivance that brought a servant to the fold anyway. of course it is a matter of marketability also but still indicative of how inextricable servants are from the "fate" side as perceived by the fandom.



    well, no, that's wrong, but more pertinently why would such an integration be "fantastic". what in the world is there to possibly gain from it?
    Eh, Case Files still explores the world of magi as a whole pretty well independent of Servants, though it is true that Servants are increasingly taking over that framework since they are now being used to demonstrate the ontology/history of magecraft and Mystery. Also, it's about Waver, there's going to be HGW references no matter what.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  11. #29591
    後継者 Successor Bugs's Avatar
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    Honestly the CF show is the biggest disappointment in regards to CF as a series. Adra and even Iselma were great specifically because they had zero to do with Servants, and let Sanda use Waver to talk about all kinds of things unrelated to what CF became with Rail Zeppelin.

  12. #29592
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    I disagree with that being why they were great, but they were great, and they had nothing to do with Servants. Rail Zeppelin''s overall plot was good to me because it combined an old plot point, the Rail Zeppelin and Mystic Eyes Auction, with Servants in a way that still highlighted what the non-Servant stuff can do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  13. #29593
    分かろうとするな、感じれ Mcjon01's Avatar
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    I thought Heartlessessesses’s plot was actually p cool though tbh

  14. #29594
    going on spoilers everything regarding heartless is peak retardation

  15. #29595
    分かろうとするな、感じれ Mcjon01's Avatar
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    Exactly he’s great right

  16. #29596
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    He just wanted the booty
    Quote Originally Posted by FSF 5, Chapter 14: Gold and Lions I
    Dumas flashed a fearless grin at Flat and Jack as he rattled off odd turns of phrase.
    "And most importantly, it's me who'll be doing the cooking."
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.


  17. #29597
    Is Gilgamesh the first character in fiction with a move that make rain swords on his enemies-type of attack? the first sword spammer?

  18. #29598
    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    In-universe or in general?

    Because the answer to the latter is a big fat no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  19. #29599
    Surpass her level, if you dare. hayate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallacia View Post
    I could swear that i paragraphed it when I corrected kiri's quoating and cited it as kirei instead, weird. Anyways, Thanks for the feedback! Fghost

    I guess what bothers me is not what defines a *standard* HGW or not but rather that the church that tried to standardize it further more just let it go all to nutshell in FSN and be whatever it wants.

    My Initial thoughts about this was that the they (church/association/others) tried to stray away from the kind of the 1 HGW by regulating it through multiple implantations that enforce power of the master over the servant and the stability and order/law through the church and etc.

    so I felt there was an going narrative that seeks to truly standardize how a proper and improper HGW should be rather than just let them be what they are. and this proper Standpoint was semi abandoned in zero and entirely so in FSN. that's how And why I view FSN HGW as improper in the sense of relatable to the first OG HGWs than the third/fourth were.
    And it's a well known fact that it's the first ritual to ever use historical and legendary figures as glorified batteries. And that it's only supposed to be 3 - 4 batteries instead of 7.

    Added by the fact that it's not meant to be a war and that it's only labeled as one due to the two other families straying away from the goal on why they are conducting the ritual at all in the first place.

    And going by the wars, 3rd Holy Grail War had 2 Knight classes of the same class since one of them is supposed to be the one to eliminate the cheat Servant, and the other is supposed to destroy the system. 4th Grail War had Gil as Archer and Artoria as Saber to fulfill their duties, and in the 5th one (Fate and UBW route) someone got the gist right as Saber finally destroyed the Greater Grail.
    Not dealing with it...

    Why even try?


    This is golden...
    Quote Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
    Lol Ishtarin went full Aqua
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    I've seen people in this forum spend the GDP of a third world country into Grand Order
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    Yeah, there's a saying that you should strive for perfection knowing full well you won't achieve it. Saber looked at it and said "Hold my Beer"
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    And then all her friends resented her for it.

  20. #29600
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Ratman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    well, no, that's wrong, but more pertinently why would such an integration be "fantastic". what in the world is there to possibly gain from it?
    That's my point - it's about as meaningful as tying Tsukihime and Fate together.

    In regards to the terminology, I brought up a while ago how the dichotomy of the omniscient and omnipotent being, 'god', and the foolish beings defined by their incapabilities that demons are, which is first presented in DDD, is repeated in CCC, which is allegedly unrelated to it. That's pretty interesting to me. Almost like the real cosmology is inside Nasu's head and not on paper.

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