The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[Leftovers]

Which are not heroes in the traditional sense, eh. Therein aims the speculation as to a shift in the texture of worship and the reasons behind myth-formation.

[SpoonyViking]

Seriously, History is filled with so many awesome and/or interesting people (like Florence Nightingale, who's story is downright inspiring) that we would be losing much more than any supposed "integrity" that we would gain.

What's the point of portraying "awesome and / or interesting people" if you're not going to explore what actually made them awesome and / or interesting?

[the god of world-0]

On the specific topic of typography, the invention can be conceived of as a historical/conceptual landmark where the commodification of print rendered myth untenable as a function of civilisation, perhaps in conjunction with or as a factor in the turning of Nasuland's notional "Ages" into that of modern man. Considering the implication of Gilgamesh's status as the first hero deriving from his myth being the earliest heroic narrative with a possible special significance in that it was recorded and thus endured for millennia in human recollection, it is fair to speculate that there is some significance in the function of writing - consider that myth by definition is infinitely mutable and adaptable and defies objectivity such as that afforded by "official" and "definitive" records, while also being firmly rooted in oral tradition. Even though people were scratching myths on clay and papyrus even in the Age of Gods, the proliferation of objective records could have signified a pivotal moment in myth formation similar to the original post-19th century clause for Heroic Spirit candidates - possibly facilitating a shift in the function of myth and the nature of belief itself.



Rules set by the author, of all people, were what gave the concept of a "Heroic Spirit" meaningful distinction from "person/thing with a wikipedia page", and rendered a "Servant" something more than "a template to codify literally anything into the setting". And that's why they later were done away with.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you did not mean to say Nightingale is just a " someone/thing with a Wikipedia article". I still don't see the benefit of limiting what you can do with the concept, especially if it costs a load of interesting characters and concepts. Like Voyager.

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What's the point of portraying "awesome and/or interesting people" if you're not going to explore what actually made them awesome and / or interesting?

Isn't that a problem with the writing and not the concept? You are basically saying "I am okay historical servants, I just don't like these particular ones".

[Zork Knight]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you did not mean to say Nightingale is just a " someone/thing with a Wikipedia article". I still don't see the benefit of limiting what you can do with the concept, especially if it costs a load of interesting characters and concepts. Like Voyager.

It prevents you from endlessly spewing trash left and right, which leads to neglected characters like Erik, or Eric, or whoever else.

[SpoonyViking]

Isn't that a problem with the writing and not the concept?

Isn't that what I already said?

More seriously, I reiterate I wish Fate/whatever had never actually used historical figures instead of legendary ones - or rather, that it gave those a proper in-depth treatment.

[Leftovers]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you did not mean to say Nightingale is just a " someone/thing with a Wikipedia article". I still don't see the benefit of limiting what you can do with the concept, especially if it costs a load of interesting characters and concepts. Like Voyager.

I will give you the benefit of three choices:

1) Because it is not feeding the wikipedia page into a Servant generator and seeing the sword turn into a beam that is "interesting" and "cool", but seeing the "person" through the prism of what the setting's logic defines as a Heroic Spirit, interpreted in the setting's language - the formal constraints - of what a Servant is, and inserted into narratives where this synthesis can take on a life of its own in a new context both in relation to its source and as its own character.
2) Because in a creative endeavour within an established setting innovation is majorly defined by one's interplay with the formal limits, but a breakdown in the formal limits depreciates the innovation in something created within or juxtaposed to no rules but those of its own making.
3) Because if anything can be something, nothing means anything.

[Zurvan]

I pick all of the above and being unable to read the mood for 500

[the god of world-0]

Sorry, arguments got crossed at some point. But, to Zork Night, it also sounds like your problem is with the execution and not the concept of Historical servants and if they, let's say, wrote the characters in a way that would be more of your liking, everything would be okay.

[Leftovers]

For the record (gottem) Voyager is a Cool and Good concept that can be reasonably interpreted as a

bearer of

testament to

humanity's soul

civilisation and the human species

following the logic of the setting.

[Zork Knight]

He also kinda invalidates Zeus' and Goddess Rhongominyad's plans. We already did it ourselves, go do something actually productive you old farts.

[the god of world-0]

I will give you the benefit of three choices:

1) Because it is not feeding the wikipedia page into a Servant generator and seeing the sword turn into a beam that is "interesting" and "cool", but seeing the "person" through the prism of what the setting's logic defines as a Heroic Spirit, interpreted in the setting's language - the formal constraints - of what a Servant is, and inserted into narratives where this synthesis can take on a life of its own in a new context both in relation to its source and as its own character.
2) Because in a creative endeavour within an established setting innovation is majorly defined by one's interplay with the formal limits, but a breakdown in the formal limits depreciates the innovation in something created within or juxtaposed to no rules but those of its own making.
3) Because if anything can be something, nothing means anything.

Look, I am not saying "turn Elon Musk into a rider", I am just saying I can't see why someone with such an incredible and important story like Nightingale should not be elegible as a Servant.

[Laserman]

Look, I am not saying "turn Elon Musk into a rider", I am just saying I can't see why someone with such an incredible and important story like Nightingale should not be elegible as a Servant.

They're not that important. Or incredible.

[the god of world-0]

They're not that important. Or incredible.

Elon Musk obviously not, not in a million years. But if you think Nightingale's work was not important, you need to apologize to every and all nurses.

[Zork Knight]

Look, I am not saying "turn Elon Musk into a rider", I am just saying I can't see why someone with such an incredible and important story like Nightingale should not be elegible as a Servant.

Because it's silly

[Asunder]

He also kinda invalidates Zeus' and Goddess Rhongominyad's plans. We already did it ourselves, go do something actually productive you old farts.

Zeus and Rhon's planned recordings would have been more in depth than Voyager's records though. Also Voyager would be erased if Goetia or the Alien God's plans succeed right?

[Byegod]

It prevents you from endlessly spewing trash left and right, which leads to neglected characters like Erik, or Eric, or whoever else.

I like how you think nasu cant neglect mythological characters either or relegate them to one note roles regardlses

[Leftovers]

Look, I am not saying "turn Elon Musk into a rider", I am just saying I can't see why someone with such an incredible and important story like Nightingale should not be elegible as a Servant.

Because a remarkable individual pursuing a selfless goal for the betterment of mankind is heroic in the contemporary sense, but not heroic in the sense that is firmly embedded in human consciousness and the one that the setting initially laid down. The quintessential hero is a figure that performs predominantly martial deeds and is considered, by virtue of being the protagonist of his own narrative, a unique existence whose deeds no one else could accomplish. By the same logic that mercifully keeps Simo from being a Servant, being a supernurse doesn't quite qualify.

The definition beyond that is open - or even more open if you think I'm making all of this up - to interpretation, as is consequently what one considers a "proper" Heroic Spirit. I think that, in addition to the former, a "paragon of mankind" and "tradition that safeguards the later generations" can only be a hero of major cultural significance or one whose myth contextualises and embodies fundamental human values in the hero's figure, and so I don't consider the Olympic boxing champion of 482BC or some 15th century condottiere Servant material. Generally it's easy to tell who isn't when you can't come up with two good NPs that aren't army summons for them. Better to come up with a weird interpretation of the Heroic Spirit rules than make something boring just to turn Some Guy into a Servant.

[Byegod]

Nasu definition of hero was already turning into a modern example in FSN, just look at herc.

[Leftovers]

herakles is indeed the last thing that comes to mind when one thinks of a hero with cultural significance, yes

[Zork Knight]

Because a remarkable individual pursuing a selfless goal for the betterment of mankind is heroic in the contemporary sense, but not heroic in the sense that is firmly embedded in human consciousness and the one that the setting initially laid down. The quintessential hero is a figure that performs predominantly martial deeds and is considered, by virtue of being the protagonist of his own narrative, a unique existence whose deeds no one else could accomplish. By the same logic that mercifully keeps Simo from being a Servant, being a supernurse doesn't quite qualify.

The definition beyond that is open - or even more open if you think I'm making all of this up - to interpretation, as is consequently what one considers a "proper" Heroic Spirit. I think that, in addition to the former, a "paragon of mankind" and "tradition that safeguards the later generations" can only be a hero of major cultural significance or one whose myth contextualises and embodies fundamental human values in the hero's figure, and so I don't consider the Olympic boxing champion of 482BC or some 15th century condottiere Servant material. Generally it's easy to tell who isn't when you can't come up with two good NPs that aren't army summons for them. Better to come up with a weird interpretation of the Heroic Spirit rules than make something boring just to turn Some Guy into a Servant.

Something something historical isn't enough, you also gotta be cultural