The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[SpoonyViking]

Yeah, this. Absolutely, the Origin is basically Nasu's take on the alaya-vijnana of Yogacara Buddhism or the vijnana/consciousness more generally, [...]

Oh, interesting to know! Thanks!

[Byegod]

Digitisation of the soul isn't the exact same thing as materialisation in the Heaven's Feel sense, but transmuting your soul into spirit particles to act independently of your body and interact with the Reality Marble of the Moon Cell is close enough as far as wizards are concerned. Specifically the "soul operates outside the body" part.

I guess? Iunno it still feels really weird to me as it feels like the immortality part is what one wants, also since hackers exist in FGO wouldnt it be crackled there but as far as i can recall they dont make a big deal out of it?

again dont wanna come off as bad faith....

[Leftovers]

Could be wrong here but if memory serves, what FGO sends to singularities isn't a person's soul so much as their consciousness.

[fumei]

Could be wrong here but if memory serves, what FGO sends to singularities isn't a person's soul so much as their consciousness.

A person is transformed into a pseudo-spiritron form (their soul is quantified as data)[...]

Though technically they don't send anything away per se, they create a numerical formula and then project that elsewhere and observe it, it's just close enough to the real thing that not even the world can tell the difference (which is also why when they get in the rayshift coffin there's a sort of quantum "there and not there" state in place.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

There's also earlier context that origins can be used to denote alignments. Since the first part isn't saying his Origin became sword, and along with other info given that suggests any changes with Shirou to be about his magecraft/circuits, I really can't see all this to be suggesting Avalon changed his Origin and alignment, instead of only changing the alignment, the latter of which we are told flatout is possible with Sakura. Feels a little like forcing a conclusion to me.

I mean, it says Shirou's affinity is sword because his Origin is Sword, but Complete Materials states that Avalon changed his affinity and circuitry to Sword. If both statements are true, that could only mean Avalon changed his Origin, and then affinity. Of course, one could retcon the other, in which case that's out the window.

[Lily Emilio]

Oh, I remember talking about that with a friend. Apparently, reincarnation doesn't exist in the Nasuverse;* creatures with the same Origin aren't reincarnations of each other, they just share a common point of origin. So it's less Lio remembering a previous life and more him sharing the life of another being who had the same Origin.

* Except for Roa, and even in his case, it's not exactly what we'd call reincarnation: his personality, his memories, everything that makes up the being known as "Roa" is beamed - except for his soul.

That being said, Nasu has already built his system on both Platonic ideas about forms and concepts and Buddhist ideas on reincarnation and the self, two systems that in their entirety contradict each other in many important ways.

Actually the way the soul is described and utilized by Nasu is more lean to the Taoism side than Buddhism. Since both have reincarnation concepts, it is easy to confuse these 2 types. The soul is a side factor in Buddhism, while it is considered nigh indestructible in Taoism (kinda similar to Hinduism). Reincarnation in Buddhism disregards any of the person's previous traits and only based on two things: vijnana and karma. Meanwhile reincarnation in Taoism is focused on the moving and transforming of the soul from one's life to another's. The person can look different, can have completely different personalities in Taoism, but the "root" is the same soul, hence Nezha can have Asura-like mode with 3 heads and 6 arms because he was a literal Asura in his past life. Since the Root is based on the Taiji of Taoism, all things originates from it and eventually return to it at the end, going from formless to having a form and then return to being formless, the important aspect is not the appearance (the form, the vessel, the container) but what is contained inside it (the soul, the contained).

There are several other things that is inspired by the idealogy of Taoism combined with Buddhism that Nasu utilizes i.e the Counter Force only needing the bare minimum force to deal with threats is very similar to the wu wei concept...etc...and this soul and reincarnation business is no difference. It has a bit of this and that.

[Lily Emilio]

I guess? Iunno it still feels really weird to me as it feels like the immortality part is what one wants, also since hackers exist in FGO wouldnt it be crackled there but as far as i can recall they dont make a big deal out of it?

again dont wanna come off as bad faith....

The 3rd got cracked in Extraverse mostly because of the existence of Moon Cell. It already did most of the heavy lifting. FGO is yet to have such cheat code.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Actually the way the soul is described and utilized by Nasu is more lean to the Taoism side than Buddhism. Since both have reincarnation concepts, it is easy to confuse these 2 types. The soul is a side factor in Buddhism, while it is considered nigh indestructible in Taoism (kinda similar to Hinduism). Reincarnation in Buddhism disregards any of the person's previous traits and only based on two things: vijnana and karma. Meanwhile reincarnation in Taoism is focused on the moving and transforming of the soul from one's life to another's. The person can look different, can have completely different personalities in Taoism, but the "root" is the same soul, hence Nezha can have Asura-like mode with 3 heads and 6 arms because he was a literal Asura in his past life. Since the Root is based on the Taiji of Taoism, all things originates from it and eventually return to it at the end, going from formless to having a form and then return to being formless, the important aspect is not the appearance (the form, the vessel, the container) but what is contained inside it (the soul, the contained).

There are several other things that is inspired by the idealogy of Taoism combined with Buddhism that Nasu utilizes i.e the Counter Force only needing the bare minimum force to deal with threats is very similar to the wu wei concept...etc...and this soul and reincarnation business is no difference. It has a bit of this and that.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks Lily.

[madarra]

So, when your soul goes back to the root and recycled into a new one, can the Origin change? From X to Y or from Swords to Consumption just to give some words.

Does the soul get simplified into a Origin of Swords that will leave the root as a Origin of swords, or does it get simplified into "One unit of Origin energy" which gets recycled into a different Origin of Consumption?

[LegalLoliLover]

Well, wasn't Lio's Origin throughout all of his lives Consumption or something?

[AAM1232]

I mean, it says Shirou's affinity is sword because his Origin is Sword, but Complete Materials states that Avalon changed his affinity and circuitry to Sword. If both statements are true, that could only mean Avalon changed his Origin, and then affinity. Of course, one could retcon the other, in which case that's out the window.

I was questioning the first part since it's not mentioned in other translations, and after asking someone, they don't seem to think one is affecting the other like the other TLs. Don't see the sudden retcon stuff or whatever when we've seen affinities change in others but not Origins.

[madarra]

Well, wasn't Lio's Origin throughout all of his lives Consumption or something?

The statement in the KnK movie subs was that he was a carnivore in ALL his past lives.

[Byegod]

The 3rd got cracked in Extraverse mostly because of the existence of Moon Cell. It already did most of the heavy lifting. FGO is yet to have such cheat code.

So what is the third then? im asking because im legit kinda confused, since a lot of the effects seemed to just be natural consequences of soul materialization, yet I cant see how there honest comparable in extra vs SN

like TO ME it feels like there taking apples for oranges, wouldnt it just be a partial use at best since servant summoning is considered to be a shard of the third, Like anyone else get this? plus it feels like its never come up anywhere else.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Actually the way the soul is described and utilized by Nasu is more lean to the Taoism side than Buddhism. Since both have reincarnation concepts, it is easy to confuse these 2 types. The soul is a side factor in Buddhism, while it is considered nigh indestructible in Taoism (kinda similar to Hinduism). Reincarnation in Buddhism disregards any of the person's previous traits and only based on two things: vijnana and karma. Meanwhile reincarnation in Taoism is focused on the moving and transforming of the soul from one's life to another's. The person can look different, can have completely different personalities in Taoism, but the "root" is the same soul, hence Nezha can have Asura-like mode with 3 heads and 6 arms because he was a literal Asura in his past life. Since the Root is based on the Taiji of Taoism, all things originates from it and eventually return to it at the end, going from formless to having a form and then return to being formless, the important aspect is not the appearance (the form, the vessel, the container) but what is contained inside it (the soul, the contained).

There are several other things that is inspired by the idealogy of Taoism combined with Buddhism that Nasu utilizes i.e the Counter Force only needing the bare minimum force to deal with threats is very similar to the wu wei concept...etc...and this soul and reincarnation business is no difference. It has a bit of this and that.

Also, I find it interesting that you view the Root as the Taiji because for me, it always felt more like the Platonic Realm, since it is the source of all forms, and all concepts and objects fundamentally descend from the Root and each other in a very hierarchical fashion, and one can recognize what something is through a process akin to anamnesis.

- - - Updated - - -

The statement in the KnK movie subs was that he was a carnivore in ALL his past lives.

And all of those carnivores were linked by the Origin of Devour.

[Kamera]

Achktually the root is closer to Brahman
Achktually the root is closer to Ein Sof
etc

[Byegod]

Something something omnipotent paradox something

One observation, at least to me I think you can tell when nasu went full on with the mecha greek stuff, its i think after the design/lore stage of apoc and probably around CCC because of the greek designs beforehand.

And like how adding mecha stuff to achilles REALLY clashes

[Lily Emilio]

Also, I find it interesting that you view the Root as the Taiji because for me, it always felt more like the Platonic Realm, since it is the source of all forms, and all concepts and objects fundamentally descend from the Root and each other in a very hierarchical fashion, and one can recognize what something is through a process akin to anamnesis.

Achktually the root is closer to Brahman
Achktually the root is closer to Ein Sof
etc

Not when Nasu made a connection to it like this, to me at least:

Connection to the Root: A

All existence originates from 「 」 and follows 「 」.
Separating the Ryougi, rotating the four phenomena, and assembling the eight trigrams. Revealing the truth of the world. The Ryougi is the yin-yang of the taijitu. Her name comes from the "shiki" of suushiki and the "shiki" of shikigami. In other words, the mark of an all-powerful wish machine. For those who possess this skill, regular parameters become meaningless.

Obviously the idea of some metaphysical concept/being/plane that exist before everything isn't exclusive to Eastern philosophy, and a lot of similarities can be seen. My point is not arguing that it has to be 100% the Taiji (it isn't, there are aspects of it that does not fit with it entirely), but it seems to be the closest connection that Nasu used to justify Ryougi being a vessel of it, especially when the ones planning for her to be its vessel named her Ryougi - coming from that quote about rotating the Ryougi, the summary of Taoism's main idealogy. Therefore I view it as something closer to the Taiji than the others. It can just be all of the ideas about an extreme concept that exists before and above all things from all different religions.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

True, though I wonder how much Nasu and his research team even know about Platonism. I mean, they clearly know a fair bit about Western occult practices and movements what with the Trismegistus reference and a lot of the stuff in Case Files, but Platonism as a whole doesn't seem to get much direct reference.

[Kamera]

Shiki's connection to the Root is just one Particular of which the Root is the Universal of. The root has different names to different cultures, and it is clear that Nasu meant it as the catch all-term for the various theosophical gnosis. I don't see why it should be closer to any particular religion's conception of it.

[Dullahan]

most discussions of「 」in TM operate at such a high level of abstraction you can make any connection you want, and probably the reason for this is that if 「 」owes anything to anything it is 19th century theosophical fanfic mashups of Za Wizdom off za Oliento as purveyed by Blavatsky et al., filtered through multiple layers of popularisers, fantasy writers, and RPG rulebook authors. use of the term 'akashic records' suggests this heritage. it is correct to say that discussions of「 」in knk lean more in a taoist direction than elsewhere. elsewhere they tend not to have much direction at all