I don't feel like being cancelled in ten years time, so I edited out this message.
I don't feel like being cancelled in ten years time, so I edited out this message.
Last edited by Ideofago; November 26th, 2021 at 09:46 PM.
Call me 想φαγω.
Spoiler:
Which ones do you defend lmao
On that though, I feel like one of the reasons i dont care about any attempt to make zouken more than he is, is due to that + the abuse hitting really close ( the abuse that is)
Plus it doesnt add anything, its just irritating to go 'he was friends with x and y servant'
That is basically all interesting discussion though, outside of just checking facts.Originally Posted by Byegod
I love reading people's interpretations of things and speculations.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Yeah i agree, i am being slightly hypocritical on this
If you wanna hear my interpretations lmao, I'm all willing to give my ideas
Last edited by Byegod; November 24th, 2021 at 02:08 PM.
I don't feel like being cancelled in ten years time, so I edited out this message.
Last edited by Ideofago; November 26th, 2021 at 09:47 PM.
Call me 想φαγω.
Spoiler:
I mean, it's been there since his death scene in the original game.
I don't mind Zouken for that, especially since he's more clinically evil about the worms (aka "I'm throwing X to the worms for X goal") than delighting in it, if that makes sense? I'm actually more like you in regard to Shinji, whose evil is petty and personal, and I just can't empathize with his motives since he's still a rapist.
Zouken is someone so old he forgot why he did the thing he did for what was originally a noble goal. Shinji is just kind of pathetic.
That's just my personal opinion tho.
I mean was it ever really said he was friends with para or vinci in OG fate, I dont think so.
BUT i think the real tell would be how mentally aware he was when he started the combo of rape + cannibalism + bestiality that are crest worms, like if we are to use fgo zouken he seemed extremely lucid in the 1880s or whatever vs the 1930s/40s of apocrypha/HGW3
That one data point would change so so much, and from some perspectives it seems impractical to have the rape aspect as part of the crest worms outside of sheer sadism.
Then there is the fact that zouken is lucid, he may forgotten some things but he himself is very lucid and aware, this isn't shiki being possessed, he is fully aware of what is going on and what he is doing regardless.
And what was that one saying "intentions matter not, deeds do" or something along those lines
And also that sadism often wins out over practicality for zouken, like kariya, sure he may have not been good but zouken didnt need to do such a hateful job or purposefully sabotage him with berserker summoning or eating the mothers or letting shinji rape sakura
I hope this is coherent or understandable
TLDR : any argument of forgetfullness is undercut by the planning and lucidity zouken does have.
Last edited by Byegod; November 24th, 2021 at 06:01 PM.
Jesus Christ.
Spoiler:
So you can have professional murderers, blood sacrifices of women and children, and blood-sucking corpses? But rape is the line that you don't want to cross? Can I laugh at those standards? Actually, never mind. I'm the sort to do so, anyway.
Ironically, I can't comprehend the amount of flaws in your reading comprehension.
Call me 想φαγω.
Spoiler:
Well rape is a very touchy subject due to how its... i would say different from other crimes
Murder can be justified in narrative for example, self defense/stopping bad guy, vampires can be justified as well cause they need to eat
Rape however is a crime that is very very very very hard to justify, plus the fact that it leaves people alive afterwards, It's like how familial abuse is a touchy subject.
Thank you for your keen insight as always, LegalLoliLover. Always enhancing the conversation.
This isn't really a matter of his intentions as I'm not looking to justify or excuse Zouken's deeds, but more like...
He's just a more interesting villain even with his evil actions? I took your comment about his past acquaintances as meaning that it tried to make Zouken more than he is (an evil worm old man), but my point was that this intent was present since the VN.
It's not that him forgetting his original goal because his soul is literally rotting means he isn't evil, but it serves as an interesting point of origin to see how far he fell off and why. It's a bit like the dictators who were former revolutionaries fighting back against dictators, it's an interesting "fall from grace" type of person to me.
Compare with Shinji's inferiority complex and coming from a broken home, which just isn't as interesting to me.
It's a bit like Kirei and Ryunosuke in the 4th War: one of them is more of a characterized villain than the other.
Could the Crest Worms not have a sexual aspect to them? Yes absolutely. Just worms as parasites like tapeworms would have been plenty.
Now, I'm compelled to post the meme:
Still, humor aside, that's the biggest reason why rape appears a worse crime than, say, murder, for example. Perception. Perception is stronger when you have a witness describing it, rather than some forensics scientist explaining it.
I take a far less human view at that, especially given the risings and fallings of the many nations that occupied the land currently known as China. Actually, the basic design of the yin-yang demonstrates it quite well. The black space has a white dot that will eventually take up the black space. That white space has a black dot that will eventually take up the white space. Leaders and nations rise and fall. A "revolutionary" is nothing more than one of those tools that make that phenomena happen.
Last edited by LegalLoliLover; November 24th, 2021 at 11:02 PM.
Maybe its just me I find zouken kinda.. boring
Like he doesnt have the same charisma of a 'big evil' villian that kirei has for example
Its really hard to put it into words why some big evils are good, and some are just boring
Some is up to the person, but I often find that with a lot of nasu bads I find that nasu goes far too around to try and justify or make it all philosophical/moral relativism that it starts to get annoying to me, or it feels like nasu wants you to like this character
like with kiara or olga to me, there is this gap with how nasu see's them and how other people see them.
Plus the crimes zouken has done just like makes it impossible to feel sympathy in anyway for me
And its probably gonna be the same whenever nasu tries to put the pity card with the fgo p2 villain
Last edited by Byegod; November 24th, 2021 at 11:42 PM.
Well, I certainly empathize with Kirei. As for Olga... What did she do?
Its more me wondering how in control she is or if nasu will go "oh the beast form is her repressed feeling, but she is still in control"
Kinda with sakura at times with dark sakura, though i always felt that logic in story didnt make much sense...
Emotions dont need to make sense, we do the dumbest shit when we think we can get away with it by shifting the blame.
Yeah true
Personally, this is more a vague question
But in terms of ideas of magic from other settings, if nasu could import or retcon something to fit that , what would you like to have
E.G : Change magecraft to resememble magic from x or y thing
Do we know if he was the one who came up with the idea? Maybe it was one of his predecessors
Hell, maybe kid Zouken had his share of worm time too
Just sayin
don't quote me on this
From what it sounds like, it was something he came up with to live longer in order to obtain "material" in order to realize his ambitions, so his own creation.
The key point was that he never hands over his crest or actually trains his family members, its been him that has been "reintroducing" himself in the family registrar for centuries. They had been on the decline since turning away apprentices for decades.
I don't even think they make mention anywhere of who represented the Makiri in the first 3 wars.
Which make the implications about Byakuya and Kariya's parents circumstances hazy at absolute best. But Sakura mentions that she heard her foster grandmother planted the tree outside the residence in Hollow, so....
Last edited by Altima of the Gates; November 25th, 2021 at 10:14 AM.
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