The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[LegalLoliLover]

That’s not what he wanted out of Angra at all. He wanted to put something unquestionably born evil in the world to raise him properly, so he could get his answer on whether something evil by nature was able to become good by nurture.

Could you find the exact Heaven's Feel quote about that? Unlimited Codes usually provides an abridged but otherwise accurate portrayals of the characters, and in it, Kotomine says: "perform the evils that you must"

Again, before you make fun of me for posting the Unlimited Codes video, post the Heaven's Feel one, if it can gainsay this one (and tell me the time stamp because I know that it's probably going to be a long video). Oh, yes, at around 28:31 is that statement in full detail in Heaven's Feel:

[Herod]

"Yes. His nature is evil. He was made that way, after all. He was born to be evil from the very beginning.
He's not like people. This is a pure deity that people made.
But――――even if his actions are evil, we have yet to know what he thinks of it."

"Eh...?"
What Angra Manyu thinks about his own actions...?

"Yes.
If Angra Manyu considers them evil and agonizes over them, or considers them good and laughs about them. That is not something we can assume.
If that thing has emotions like those of humans and agonizes over its doings, it is evil.
But if it has no doubt about its existence, it is good. Everyone wished for him to be that way, after all. If it has no doubt about its function, it cannot be evil."

"Wha――――"
"Yes.
Those with defects at birth.
Those who were not wanted, even before birth.
It should show us the worth of worthless life: the meaning of birth."

"Would it be able to forgive itself after destroying and losing everything?
That's what I would like to know.
I want to know if it is a crime to live as you are, when you are different from others.
That is why I killed your father and let Matou Sakura live. I cannot come up with the answer by myself. That is why I wish for the birth of what can provide me with the answer."

[LegalLoliLover]

So yes, there's nothing about "raising him right", but rather what he thinks about his own actions.
But if moral standards are nothing more than spooks, then what does it matter? If he can do all this, and it does not end up causing any detriments to him, what does it matter?

[Dullahan]

"If"

[LegalLoliLover]

The rules of organized religion, morality, 'family values', 'rights and duties', social norms. These are all classic spooks.

[Herod]

Kotomine doesn't think they are "spooks". That is his whole point.

[LegalLoliLover]

In Fate/zero, Kiritsugu's research showed that Kirei was essentially a jack of all trades because he never found the one thing that he was interested in, despite learning a bit of everything. Throughout all that, it is a true pity that Kirei never learned about Stirner, but going back to the original point, there's nothing about "raising Angra Mainyu right", but rather what he thinks about his own actions, as shown in both Unlimited Codes and Heaven's Feel.

[Takashi]

Again that isn't why he thinks that. It was precisely said it's because of "common sense" he is like that.
What he says about angra mainyu is precisely that "what he thinks about it himself".
It's not about if it's meaningless or not. The dude just wants happiness.

[LegalLoliLover]

Yes, but he also said that "common sense" is something that is taught and learned.
It being his own actions, right?
Happiness? Don't we all?

[madarra]

Happiness isnt a spook?

[Dullahan]

Either write the fanfic au where Kotomine read Stirner in the seminary, or,

[LegalLoliLover]

Happiness isnt a spook?

Never said it was. Rather, happiness is more easily achievable by accepting other things as spooks.

[Herod]

Yes, but he also said that "common sense" is something that is taught and learned.

And? He still think that following this taught common sense is the right way of living for a human being.
Common sense and moral are not chains, they are tools.

[LegalLoliLover]

If they get in the way of your own happiness, then by definition, they are spooky chains. Common sense and morality appear to be what is making Kotomine lament. But yes, they can also be tools, when they are applied a certain way. No different than the state, much like police investigators who can be utilized to recover stolen video game consoles. Maybe, I should say that it's the sanctity of those concepts, rather than the concepts themselves that are the spooky chains. What value is the sanctity of God? Nothing. If that's the case, what value is the sanctity of humanity? Equally nothing. In the case of 2 people hunting meat together, the reason that they share the meat and not end up stabbing each other for it all is because they believe it's necessary to work together again to hunt more food in the future. Not because fidelity is intrinsically right, or that betrayal is intrinsically wrong.

[RoydGolden]

If they get in the way of your own happiness, then by definition, they are spooky chains. Common sense and morality appear to be what is making Kotomine lament. But yes, they can also be tools, when they are applied a certain way. No different than the state, much like police investigators who can be utilized to recover stolen video game consoles. Maybe, I should say that it's the sanctity of those concepts, rather than the concepts themselves that are the spooky chains. What value is the sanctity of God? Nothing. If that's the case, what value is the sanctity of humanity? Equally nothing. In the case of 2 people hunting meat together, the reason that they share the meat and not end up stabbing each other for it all is because they believe it's necessary to work together again to hunt more food in the future. Not because fidelity is intrinsically right, or that betrayal is intrinsically wrong.

Happiness is ultimately just another word for 'value' though. It's things you value in yourself and feel make for a life worth living. For instance you presumably wouldn't want to spend your life hooked to a dopamine-drip even though it would be pleasurable because that isn't the kind of 'happiness' you 'value'. In the same way, it makes sense to say you don't want to become the kind of person who enjoys others' suffering even if you would be 'happy' that way. I don't think it makes sense to say values are a tool to obtaining happiness when they're one of the terms that shape how 'happiness' is defined.

But as Dullahan said it's probably not really productive to continue this kind of philosophical debate on this thread. We're getting far afield from TM at this point.

[LegalLoliLover]

Ah, that's fair.

[Ideofago]

The subjectivity of any moral view does not render it valueless; the whole paradigm shift in the last few decades is the validation of subjectivity as a driving force. If you try to remain subjective with an "objective" mindset, you'll only render yourself impotent by saying "every moral is just a spook". They are, yes, fundamentally something manufactured by humans, nothing more, and nothing less, but that does not mean they are inadequate or should not be upheld.

[All fictions]

Insert that Hogfather speech about beliefs

[LegalLoliLover]

Again, like my example about the 2 hunters, they should only be upheld by people who would benefit from the upholding, not as some abstract "greater than themselves", like the very concept of being on the "right side of history" or the "side of the angels". Though, going into how nightmarish Biblically accurate angels are is a completely different discussion, anyway.

Insert that Hogfather speech about beliefs

Oh, you mean that humans need fantasy to be human? Didn't I mention something about the sanctity of humanity? Stirner replies: The divine is God's concern; the human, man's. My concern is neither the divine nor the human, not the true, good, just, free, etc., but solely what is 'mine,' and it is not a general one, but is - 'unique,' as I am unique. Nothing is more to me than myself!

[mAc Chaos]

In Fate/zero, Kiritsugu's research showed that Kirei was essentially a jack of all trades because he never found the one thing that he was interested in, despite learning a bit of everything. Throughout all that, it is a true pity that Kirei never learned about Stirner, but going back to the original point, there's nothing about "raising Angra Mainyu right", but rather what he thinks about his own actions, as shown in both Unlimited Codes and Heaven's Feel.

Kotomine still wants to believe in the Christian beliefs and values, that's why he has to know if he's right or wrong in being the way he is. You could say it would answer his question within that very framework and let him keep it. It's like saying you can't blame someone for just being how they were born. Or can you, if it leads to bad things? Angra Mainyu would answer that question for him. He basically wants to stop feeling guilty for how he is, or at least get an answer for why he's like that. I'm sure if you gave him a magic button to push to be normal he would push it instantly. He doesn't like being the way he is.