I mean I do think that would help, maybe thats why nasu avoids showing zouken becuase thats a big question to answerOriginally Posted by aldeayeah
And of course that would still mean he perpetuated a cycle of abuse
Am i sounding reasonable here?
I mean I do think that would help, maybe thats why nasu avoids showing zouken becuase thats a big question to answer
And of course that would still mean he perpetuated a cycle of abuse
Am i sounding reasonable here?
Honestly, what bothers me about Zouken is not so much that he has a tragic past and a "reason" for being evil, what bothers me is that after all the horrible things, Nasu did he wants us to sympathize with him even though the only one reason for doing it is only revealed to us after we saw him do all those horrible things, right before his death and practically out of nowhere, as they said, the same thing happens to Kiara, the things they did and the way they did them are too horrible for me to really sympathize with them in the least, and I would honestly find them far better villains if Nasu didn't want me to forget all the bad things they did with a smile just because they had a shitty life.
Didn't Kiara's tragic backstory come before her villain reveal? I don't remember the order of the events in chapter 7 too clearly.
I never saw the reveal of his old wish as an attempt to make the reader empathize with Zouken, I saw it as a last statement showing how far he had fallen as well as a point of comparison to how successful Shirou was as a person in Heaven's Feel.
In regards to Zouken being buddies with Heroic Spirits, I think it's one of the coolest things they've done with his character honestly. We already knew he was old, but attaching him to some of the best and brightest people in history, even if it's just throught statements in Materials and such, only works to make his descent into depravity all the more extreme. And it really does need to be extreme to justify his character.
Last edited by pinetree; November 25th, 2021 at 07:24 PM.
I have to agree, Zouken's character is meant to be read as a tragic fall but that doesn't mean you're meant to sympathize with him, more like pity him.
I definitely do feel like nasu wants us to sympathize with villains at this point as he does this with so many damn villains.
Or tries to justify what they did with philosophical stuff that most wont agree with (fucking twice)
And tragedy requires sympathy/pity does it not?
Good characterization for villains generally at least gives you a glimpse into their inner logic and workings. There can be room for likability and even sympathy for who they were rather than who they are. The author just needs to avoid acting like that justifies what they did unless they're writing a morally grey story.
Is there any TM villain tier list somewhere? I remember seeing it ages ago.
Making a villain understandable, logical, and human is not asking you to simpathize with them; merely to believe that they had their own reasoning, and are not cartoonishly evil. Further still, having villains that share in the morals of the protagonist to some extent is insuring that their themes serve as a counterpoint to the hero's own themes, for example, the lack of self experienced by Kotomine and Shirou. Further further still, tragedy requires not simpathy; it can be understood from a purely apathetical point of view. What changes is if it can be felt, and that is ultimately up to the reader. Explaining =/= justifying.
Call me 想φαγω.
Spoiler:
Besides, if you're going to actually symphatize with any part of Zouken, it's not going to be with his absurd dream to save humanity with some crazy magic ritual, it's going to be with his very real struggle with death.
I hadn't dealt with my own fear of death when I originally read FSN and his first conversation with Hassan hit fucking hard.
Him choosing to continue living in absolute agony and summarily denying that death could be a solution to it because of his complete panic at the idea he isn't going to be anymore is very compelling. Specially when he throws his tantrums after Ilya keeps throwing the solution to his pain at his face.
Fear of death is a perfectly valid thing
Even for a immortal
I still cant, like to move away from the sympathy argument, his character to me is "overshadowed" by the actions towards sakura and kariya and so on.
Like to use a similar example, one's body not working is something I can get, even if i have minor conditions (tremors, maybe coordination and my left foot isnt working well anymore) It's just hard for me.
Actually I think some of this also could relate as to why I reject a lot of nasu's ideas on servants AND on magic itself, I've seem some of the limits regarding medical science, in terms of shit like "does this work? no, does this next one work? no, does this next one work, kinda but the side effects make it not very useful if i want to be functional)
does Zouken still have Barbatos gene in FSN timeline? or is that just a singularity exclusive thing?
It's something that was planted since the start of their Magic Crest so he should still have it.
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You don't need to sympathize with him and I don't think the story asks you to.
You could empathize though.
A possible new interpretation for the sudden decline on the Matou succession line is Barbatos finally getting sick of Zouken's bullshit.
Not sure how i feel about that, i dont agree with the angles above but I would argue that with that angle that would partially take away from zouken if we use said above interpretation.
tbh now that i think about it zouken killing/eating the mothers is kinda self sabotaging if he just plans to take over the new generations, as from a crude perpsective a mother can have more than one child, thus more chances without attracting any attention.
To say something else
Culling and maybe mystery are things that facn only be inferred then observed outside of events like fgo if you think about it.
Of course i think there is a good argument to make that mystery is either vastly overstated or doesnt exist just based on casual observation of things like fgo part 2 not seeming to effect any magic used by chaldea for example
Last edited by Byegod; November 26th, 2021 at 09:00 PM.
Young Zouken created the Crest Worms, so probably he didn't have worm time.
I mean that means he was fine with rape and bestiality even with his "ideal"
considering even rin was sickened if memory serves as she noted there is no point for that
I'm gonna make a statement that some may hate, but if i had to guess nasu had the conception of some parts of zoukens lore at a different point than other parts and there wasnt a attempt at meshing or changing the parts so they work.
But to change topics yet again, you know how we often say the writing/Nps/whatever are limited by fgo being a gacha, I think that is partially true but I would also note that the materials dont exactly seem to help when you get shit like parvati's NP never being explained or skills that dont explain themselves and so on.
It says to me there is also a lack of trying/imagination on the authors part
The parts are clearly supposed to clash though so why would you assume that was not planned? Regardless of whether or not you think the end result worked out, the "sides" of Zouken are supposed to be polar opposites.
I guess I was imagining the part of zoukens backstory being more defined later vs the worm lore is what I meant
My view of how Zouken is written pretty much aligns with Pinetree's.
Kiara's Secret Garden "Philanthropy", about her genuine desire for mankind's salvation and people constantly betraying her while the utocracy/Church pursued her, is in chapter 4 I believe.
Dunno about when she was sick.
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