The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[madarra]

Kuusouki->kuso ki-> Blasted Tree

Am i doing it right?

[AmADo VII]

correct spell is 'Ju' not 'Ki'

[TwilightsCall]

That is exactly the kind of outside of the box thinking we need from translators these days.

[Lily Emilio]

This sounds like a fun game.

Skythought Trees.


Or, hear me out now.

空想樹
sky-thought-tree

Now let's pretend I don't know the difference between 空 and 天

heaven-thought-tree

Heaven-tree sounds like a reference to "world tree," so now its Yggdrasil.

What to do with 想 though....thought/idea/conception, let's make that an antonym of "in practice/concrete/real." So now 想 means "not real/fake." This works twice as good because it's a "heaven tree," not a "world tree," so it can't be a "real yggdrasil" anyways.

And there's more than one, so we can't just use the proper name and call it "fake Yggdrasil."

Pseudoyggdrasilid.

Hard to spell, totally opaque, and wildly inaccurate. Dare I say, the perfect translation.

Or if you go by the big caption at the end of every LB prior to 5.1: 空想切除 - Cosmos Denial, it's probably

cosmos

空想

in this case. So world tree, or universe tree if you go 1 step further to consider the galaxy inside it.

[hayate]

Maybe they translated those as trees of emptiness as lostbelts are nothing more than what ifs that reached a dead end and that the trees are the only supporting witness of those times.

Cutting down those trees will result in the crumbling of the lostbelt world, therefore "Cosmos Denial".

The question mark for me here would be why the Alien Priestess let them destroy those trees.

Unless destroying those serves as power reservoir for regeneration of the surface of their world that reached a dead end.

Or worse, Ritsuka's world is a dead end and they reject the reality of it.

[Dullahan]

Sekaioia

[Comun]

Human Order=humanity/human history
Imaginary Numbers space=Void space
Mystery=Mystics

Some other cases of NA tl being different from fan tls of commonly used Nasu terms.

神秘 as Mystics is the reasonable way to do it. Both Mystics and Mystery are technically correct but since 神秘 is only mystery in the context of the mysteries of divine, Mystery is the misleading option that was only picked to accommodate Mikiya’s wordplay when the concept was introduced.

That said, every other case has been NA choosing the misleading option. 人理 as Humanity instead of Human Order is the worst pick imaginable for a game that mentions humanity so much. The differentiation here becomes humanity and Humanity, so the two become indistinguishable when they are the first word in a sentence.

虚数 as Void, granted, is far easier to understand than Imaginary Numbers but bad for two reasons:
1) 虚数 is an actual mathematical term so there no reason not to call it the same thing English maths textbooks do.
2) The series already has another concept named Void (空, in the context of Ryougi and Musashi’s associations with the Root) and character name (Daybit).

汎人類史 as Proper Human History is technically not misleading but weakens the story’s constant point that the Lostbelts also deserve a chance.

空想樹 as Tree of Emptiness, as already explained here, is a weird decision that honestly feels like the translator didn’t notice the 想 there (I’m not saying I believe this happened). The most natural picks here would be more literal Phantasy Tree or the Cosmos Tree match with Cosmos Denial screen. Even the FGO Wikia’s delightfully obtuse Quixotic Tree is a more understandable choice than Tree of Emptiness.
As for Fallacies’ Cloud Tree, yeah, that’s a name used once in canon, but since it never came up again, until further notice I’ll be interpreting that line as Holmes trying to choose a name for the newly discovered object but the name he came up never really caught up with the rest of Chaldea.

[AAM1232]

Holmes realized that Chaldea are all chuuni at heart and so stopped using Cloud Tree from then on.

[You]

Holmes, stop trying to make Cloud Tree happen.

[Blastedspider]

Another random idea: what if Holmes is a victim of an in-universe "retcon" by Alaya?

This interpretation is based on two presuppositions:

1. The past in Nasuverse is "created" by imposing order on a nebulous collection of events experienced by the human race. This is based on the information from Extella in which the latter is called the "Universe of Awareness" and the former "the Universe of Record".

2. The Age of Man (Human Order, Modern Texture) is a structurally weaker version of reality that has to defend itself from various threats both external and internal. This task is performed by Alaya.

It should be pointed out that situation with Holmes is pretty strange. We know that he existed in Nasuverse as a person - TM Ace 2017 has a story about him and Helena hunting a monster in the Himalayas yet his F/GO interlude treats this question with a great deal of ambiguity. The same attitude is also present seen in his character profile from the Complete Material. How can this contradiction be explained? I am proposing that it arose as a result of Alaya essentially editing the Universe of Records.

Holmes originally was a person in Nasuverse, a very famous investigator of its time. However, he essentially became too perfect for his own good: a mere existence of a peerless detective capable of solving one impossible crime after another challenged the fundamental confines of the Age of Man so the Counter-Force had to interfere. For some reason, the usual methods weren't applicable so it took the other option and diminished him into something palatable, in this case, a fictional character. This doesn't mean that he was physically removed from existence though - its the collective memory of Sherlock Holmes in the Universecof Awareness was reframed as "fiction" in the Universe of Records. I don't know how this might have looked from his perspective: perhaps he "slipped" out of normal society or it was a gradual process that happened after his death but in the end, all traces of his actual existence vanished and Arthur Conan Doyle stories remained.

This explanation can be expanded to other "modern fiction" Servants such as Dantes, Jekyll&Hyde,
Frankenstein's Monster and, naturally, Moriarty. Also, Blavatsky might have suffered from a similar Counter-Force interference of a lesser degree (framed as a charlatan, which is permissible from the POV of Modern Texture).

*This is a major weak point of this already flimsy theory, but perhaps the usual method of subtle manipulation didn't work and the anomaly wasn't drastic enough to employ Counter-Guardians let alone removing the timeline.

[AAM1232]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...#post-65146426

This post by Fallacies talks about Holmes's situation. TLDR is below:

Whatever the case, what are we to take away from all of this?

• The "circumstances" of the World are a fabrication, and the history of known record has been to some extent revised.
• This revision is known to be ongoing — and most visible within the plot of Grand Order in the "overwriting" of the circumstances of death and destruction in various Singularities.
• If Holmes is to be believed, "circumstances rendered not as a matter of record" may become "matters of fiction" — though whether he can be trusted on this is unknown. That is to say, a novel about Sherlock Holmes now exists as a consequence of "some factor" (the Counter Force?) rendering the excision of any evidence to the legitimacy of his factual existence from history.
• As a Ruler, Holmes is imposed with the role of the "curation" of Truth, which I didn't really bother to discuss above. In practical terms, it seems to manifest as a restriction against the discussion of certain topics; though other consequences may exist.
• Within the current reality of Grand Order, there exists no evidence that Holmes was once a historically extant personage. Conversely, there is presumably evidence that he was a character invented by Conan Doyle. However, this doesn't change the fact that he's "real" enough to be present at Chaldea. Where the Human Order is concerned, the status of his "reality" is irrelevant to his capacity to act as a Servant.
• A good-faith discussion of whether Holmes is legitimately a historical personage would edge into an explanation of Adjacent Realities and Items Designated for Removal — whatever that means. Does this mean that Holmes originated within a culled timeline? It's impossible to tell ...

Have fun Blastedspider.

[Mcjon01]

Why would you assume a Sherlock Holmes story in TM Ace is more true than any other Sherlock Holmes story, anyway

[Rafflesiac]

obviously holmes is the forcibly created human aspect of a lovecraftian monstrosity that he gets turned into at the climax of lb6

[Dullahan]

oh no a boss fight, how will $you and the gang get out of this one? find out on the next episode of saturday morning lostbelt (smash cut to ad for sugary cereal)

[Blastedspider]

[URL]This post by Fallacies talks about Holmes's situation.

TLDR is below:

Have fun Blastedspider.

Thank you. I'd need some time to read the whole thing but from the gist of it, it seems like we came to the more or less the same conclusion so far.

Why would you assume a Sherlock Holmes story in TM Ace is more true than any other Sherlock Holmes story, anyway

Presumably, it doesn't exist in Nasuverse, at least not in the same form (as it talks about Magic Association openly).

obviously holmes is the forcibly created human aspect of a lovecraftian monstrosity that he gets turned into at the climax of lb6

If my speculation is correct it gives Holmes a good reason to be an enemy of Pan-Human history/the Age of Man (if such speculations are valid too of course). He is pretty much in the same boat as Alien God, an existence not permitted within the domain of the Human Order.

[AAM1232]

Thank you. I'd need some time to read the whole thing but from the gist of it it seems like we came to the more or less the same conclusion so far.


Presumably, it doesn't exist in Nasuverse, at least not in the same form (as it talks about Magic Association directly).


If my guess is correct it gives Holmes a good reason to be an enemy of Pan-Human history/the Age of Man (if such speculations are valid too of course). He is pretty much in the same boat as Alien God, an existence not permitted within the domain of the Human Order.

He's a Servant of the Human Order, unlike the AG. Hardly in the same boat.

[Blastedspider]

Well, look at it from this perspective: you had a good life and accomplished many things to be proud of but then you wake up and everything went "poof". Suddenly nobody remembers you (save of a few weirdos), all traces of your existence have vanished and on top of that, your achievements only exist within the pages of some cheap genre fiction (hated by its author). Then you die and the very same inhuman cosmic force behind this unpersonment makes you into its unpaid servant for eternity. Isn't it natural to feel resentment against such a cruel master?

[AAM1232]

Regardless of whether Holmes got unpersoned or not, he's still summoned and forced as a Ruler by the HO. And he's helped us out regardless of what you theorize.

What you suggest is just EMIYA's angst with some more reasons. That still doesn't make either of them like the AG.

[Blastedspider]

Regardless of whether Holmes got unpersoned or not, he's still summoned and forced as a Ruler by the HO. And he's helped us out regardless of what you theorize.

I am might be wrong, of course. But it wouldn't be the first time when a supposedly helpful character had his own goals all along and eventually turned against Chaldea. And we don't know for certain how much free will Holmes has. Perhaps he is also similar to EMIYA in that regard too, only his conditions of service are even more strict and he doesn't possess full autonomy over his actions even as a Servant.

That still doesn't make either of them like the AG.

As far as we can tell Alien God needed to remove the Age of Man because he is incompatible with its fundamental laws.
I am suggesting that Holmes got turned into a fictional character because his existence became incompatible with the same laws.
So if I am right they have a common ground so to speak.

[asterism42]

oh no a boss fight, how will $you and the gang get out of this one? find out on the next episode of saturday morning lostbelt (smash cut to ad for sugary cereal)

I mean

Shiki vs Fujino, Shiki vs Souren, Shiki vs Lio, Other Shiki vs Nero, Other Shiki vs Roa, Other Shiki vs Other Other Shiki, Aoko vs Alice, Aoko vs Touko, Soujurou vs Lugh, Shirou vs Berserker, Shirou vs Kirei, Saber vs Gilgamesh, Shirou vs Gilgamesh, Rin vs Sakura, Shirou vs Kirei again

boss battles are hardly game limited