The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[Nanashi(kari)]

I was letting my thoughts wander and suddenly it came upon me that in the pre-FSN days the Third Magic was as much of a mystery as the Fourth still is today.
This notion is rather strange to me.

[Dullahan]

misuteri wa suitai shimashita

[Deathhappens]

And now outside the Lostbelts, jinrui has finally kiemashita.

[Nyarly Alter]

The other day while taking a bath i had this really crack wacky idea for what a Loki servant in FGO would be like. I thought maybe exploiting the connection he has with Odin in mythology (They swore a blood oath) Loki could "borrow" a part of Odin's spirit origin and be summoned with some of Odin's powers. Like for example he could be summoned as a Lancer with Gungnir as his Noble Phantasm, but the NP would have a much lower rank than it should because the spear is not his

Then his trickster side could be represented in a skill that gives stars and avoid or something

[Deathhappens]

The other day while taking a bath i had this really crack wacky idea for what a Loki servant in FGO would be like. I thought maybe exploiting the connection he has with Odin in mythology (They swore a blood oath) Loki could "borrow" a part of Odin's spirit origin and be summoned with some of Odin's powers. Like for example he could be summoned as a Lancer with Gungnir as his Noble Phantasm, but the NP would have a much lower rank than it should because the spear is not his

Then his trickster side could be represented in a skill that gives stars and avoid or something

Better yet, make him a Rider riding his own son.

[Nyarly Alter]

Better yet, make him a Rider riding his own son.

Lmao if that happened i'd whale for him

[Hawkeye]

A thought just struck me at random. Fate/Zero basically highlights that the Holy Grail isn't an omnipotent wish granting machine as the user still has to have some conception of how their wish is to be achieved, but it's also not not an omnipotent wish granting machine because Shirou Amakusa managed to use it to enact the Third Magic on a worldwide scale. He didn't have to himself be a user of said magic or understand how it achieves the end that it does, just that it is capable of doing so with enough energy. So presumably, even if you have no idea of the exact mechanism behind your wish, so long as you know a basic outline to achieve it, it should still work, right? So like, if I wanted to be omniscient, and to do this I had to know where every particle in the universe was and how it was moving to then be able to extrapolate where they all came from and where they were all going to in essense be omniscient, the Grail would be able to grant that ability without me needing to understand the mechanism by which it would do this, right?

I'm probably just spouting sophistic bs, but it was a random idea that hit while I was cleaning up and I am very tired. :'(

[Byegod]

For some reason I just dont care bout faerie lore, i think its some kind of conflict i see with newer vs older lore or something, or how any fae in folklore has a personality and isnt just a "terminal"

[Deathhappens]

A thought just struck me at random. Fate/Zero basically highlights that the Holy Grail isn't an omnipotent wish granting machine as the user still has to have some conception of how their wish is to be achieved, but it's also not not an omnipotent wish granting machine because Shirou Amakusa managed to use it to enact the Third Magic on a worldwide scale. He didn't have to himself be a user of said magic or understand how it achieves the end that it does, just that it is capable of doing so with enough energy. So presumably, even if you have no idea of the exact mechanism behind your wish, so long as you know a basic outline to achieve it, it should still work, right? So like, if I wanted to be omniscient, and to do this I had to know where every particle in the universe was and how it was moving to then be able to extrapolate where they all came from and where they were all going to in essense be omniscient, the Grail would be able to grant that ability without me needing to understand the mechanism by which it would do this, right?

I'm probably just spouting sophistic bs, but it was a random idea that hit while I was cleaning up and I am very tired. :'(

Important to note that the Grail in Apocrypha was not corrupted by a pupative form of literally All The Evils Of The World. That said, going by Nasu's love for D&D analogues I'm guessing the less you understand about how your wish can be actualized the more likely you are to get a monkey's paw situation (similar to how Wish/Miracle work there).

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

A thought just struck me at random. Fate/Zero basically highlights that the Holy Grail isn't an omnipotent wish granting machine as the user still has to have some conception of how their wish is to be achieved, but it's also not not an omnipotent wish granting machine because Shirou Amakusa managed to use it to enact the Third Magic on a worldwide scale. He didn't have to himself be a user of said magic or understand how it achieves the end that it does, just that it is capable of doing so with enough energy. So presumably, even if you have no idea of the exact mechanism behind your wish, so long as you know a basic outline to achieve it, it should still work, right? So like, if I wanted to be omniscient, and to do this I had to know where every particle in the universe was and how it was moving to then be able to extrapolate where they all came from and where they were all going to in essense be omniscient, the Grail would be able to grant that ability without me needing to understand the mechanism by which it would do this, right?

I'm probably just spouting sophistic bs, but it was a random idea that hit while I was cleaning up and I am very tired. :'(

I doubt the Grail is truly, 100% omnipotent. It's so powerful that they call it that, but it ultimately does have a limited amount of magical energy. Perhaps that energy is enough to affect the entirety of humanity, but all of existence? Nah. Especially not beyond the human order.

[Menwearpink]

He didn't have to himself be a user of said magic or understand how it achieves the end that it does, just that it is capable of doing so with enough energy.

Well, it's like.

Say your goal is to cool down your room because it's the summer.

You get an Air Conditioner (Grail) and you press the on button and make it cool down your room after you've set it up properly (wish). You don't need to know how to make a AC, or how the physics work since your plan is "turn the AC on."

This is simplifying it and Amakusa has a pretty specific plan, and is sorta also substituting for stuff like the Dress of Heaven and other things with his cheat isekai arms, and Shakespeare.

But I imagine that trying to do something with Heavens Feel is possible given enough knowledge and poking around with mages, and definitely possible with caster servants that are actual high tier mages.

Amakusa doesn't have the ability or knowledge to Heavens Feel, but he has an idea of what he wants to do with it, and a Heavens Feel Machine. He has enough of a connection and the grail has enough souls and so on.

[Hawkeye]

I doubt the Grail is truly, 100% omnipotent. It's so powerful that they call it that, but it ultimately does have a limited amount of magical energy. Perhaps that energy is enough to affect the entirety of humanity, but all of existence? Nah. Especially not beyond the human order.

Well, yeah, but my example was more making me omniscient by giving information, not actually affecting everything there is. XD

Having said that, yeah, there's the obvious limit that the Grail is ultimately a shortcut with a limited amount of mana, hence the whole gap between sacrificing 6 servants for a wish and 7 for achieving the root.

Well, it's like.

Say your goal is to cool down your room because it's the summer.

You get an Air Conditioner (Grail) and you press the on button and make it cool down your room after you've set it up properly (wish). You don't need to know how to make a AC, or how the physics work since your plan is "turn the AC on."

This is simplifying it and Amakusa has a pretty specific plan, and is sorta also substituting for stuff like the Dress of Heaven and other things with his cheat isekai arms, and Shakespeare.

But I imagine that trying to do something with Heavens Feel is possible given enough knowledge and poking around with mages, and definitely possible with caster servants that are actual high tier mages.

Amakusa doesn't have the ability or knowledge to Heavens Feel, but he has an idea of what he wants to do with it, and a Heavens Feel Machine. He has enough of a connection and the grail has enough souls and so on.

A fair analogy. In general I was just trying to parse out roughly how much of the "you need to know how" you actually require to get the grail not to horribly monkey paw you.

[Deathhappens]

So, I was rewatching the Banquet of Kings scene from Fate/Zero for the umptieth time (as one does), and I have to say... I really don't get the people who say that "Saber got bullied" or "they made Alexander look like he was in the right". It's a spirited exchange, to be sure, but it is masterfully crafted to showcase BOTH points without affirming either one. Alexander says that wanting to undo the past is a slap to the face on both your efforts and the efforts of your subjects alongside you, Saber points out that his reign ended with him dying early and his heirs tearing his empire apart. Saber expounds on how a king must be virtuous lest they become a petty tyrant, Alexander counters that such a king would have to be a saint and a martyr, not a human being. Yes, Alex closes out by rejecting her as a king and calling her a little girl bound by her own ideals, but at the same time Gil encourages her to ignore him follow her path despite knowing it leads to destruction. Saber's wish for the Grail IS self-destructive (she literally wants to erase herself from history!), but pointing that out doesn't mean everyone else's path is automatically correct.

[LegalLoliLover]

Like I said, in that situation, Arturia Alter would have just started chopping.

[Walnut Sparks]

So, I was rewatching the Banquet of Kings scene from Fate/Zero for the umptieth time (as one does), and I have to say... I really don't get the people who say that "Saber got bullied" or "they made Alexander look like he was in the right".

You don't seem to have anything new to say about it. I don't suppose I do either. Agree to disagree?

[Deathhappens]

Like I said, in that situation, Arturia Alter would have just started chopping.

Artoria Alter wouldn't have shown up in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

You don't seem to have anything new to say about it. I don't suppose I do either. Agree to disagree?

Sure?

[LegalLoliLover]

Not unless burgers were promised.

[You]

I really don't get the people who say that "Saber got bullied"

“Ah. If so, what about getting me to write about the fourth Heaven’s Feel? Something like Fate/zero.”

So… impressive!!

Isn’t this just great? To be honest, I even think this is an idea more wonderful that developing the Hollow game.

Then, we began to discuss about it:

“Speaking of, what is the fourth war about?”

“Hum – Saber getting bullied by Gilgamesh and Alexander!”

I answered unceremoniously.

In my mind, there are two main points in the fourth Heaven’s Feel.

One is Saber’s setback.

King Arthur, who ruled her people as the model human. The selfless and devoted, just and uncorrupted Artoria.

The absolute commander who surpassed mortals, the majestic Gilgamesh.

And the extravert king whom some called a tyrant, but still held his belief that he’ll bring his people to happiness. The King of Conquerors, Alexander, who ruled the world as a man.

Using the intensive conflict between the three to unravel Saber’s story in Zero.

And the other point is Kiritsugu’s story. I contracted that to him according to his wishes as well. I don’t care about other things anymore.

“I understand. Then I’ll do it according to the way I like it to be. Ah, but I’ll do my best to get the style of the piece close to Fate.”

He is indeed Urobuchi Gen, able to think about TYPE-MOON’s clients.

It's confirmation bias and the need to encapsulate the uncomfortable feelings the scene brings about into an easily understood, seemingly provable, and spreadable soundbite that can be stripped away from the context of the work.

[Menwearpink]

I wouldn't say that Saber is bullied in the banquet persay. More that people can't notice the fact that Iskander's faults are a bit glossed over but not actually dismissed, and such in comparison.

Which you can say is a sort of bias via omission but, that gets messy doesn't it?

I'd still say Saber is not really Saber in Fate/zero, or that Urobuchi handles any of the characters that originate and show up in Fate/Zero well at all. In fact I'd also go on to say that Fate/Zero has too many problems as a work itself to even be considered good even if it wasn't tied to something else, or being a prequel.

Anime was nice tho.

[Byegod]

It's confirmation bias and the need to encapsulate the uncomfortable feelings the scene brings about into an easily understood, seemingly provable, and spreadable soundbite that can be stripped away from the context of the work.

Did nasu say saber getting bullied or was that uro, i cant tell who is who