The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[Altima of the Gates]

There are snippets that do imply there is more to Kiara than the Demonic Bodhisattva bit and the fact that somewhere in her mind, she thinks she is doing the unilateral right thing. Even the narcissism is implied to be based on her viewpoint of humanity with her being the only human and the rest being beasts.

I mean, people like Kirei and his motivation is fundamentally "I don't like that I have these urges" or rather "I don't like that I was brought up to be conscious of a sense that would dislike these urges inside me". And he manipulated and tortured kids, tossed his daughter to heretic hating psychos with a spirit based birth defect, and the list goes on.
You definitely don't have to be good, and the people who like him aren't going to be repulsed by those facts.

It would be up to someone better than I and qualified to determine if both of these are treatable or if they were lost causes. Probably would be difficult given they are very intelligent and have a strong framework for their ideologies.
Well, post Gil Kirei I guess, maybe he'd be more receptive before the Gil stuff. Though ha, wouldn't that be an extra mark on Gil in that Mr. Clairvoyant took an easily manipulated person and decided to push him over the edge instead of giving him honest help? He wouldn't even have the excuse of the 10 years being sick of humanity or the mud making him more excited.

[Byegod]

Shhhh not allowed to criticize golden boy.

But to change topic, shower thought i had

The maximised mystery spell for modern day would involve the equivalent of machine learning, you dont know how it got the result after all

[NINE-lives]

Fun thought: divine spirits can be summoned without a host if they used to be or became human. Odin disguised himself as human a bunch of time’s meaning that he became human for a bit meaning that he can be summoned without a host based on his episodes of concealing himself among the humans.

[Lily Emilio]

I mean, Tamamo exists.

[Huralok]

Fun thought: divine spirits can be summoned without a host if they used to be or became human. Odin disguised himself as human a bunch of time’s meaning that he became human for a bit meaning that he can be summoned without a host based on his episodes of concealing himself among the humans.

Anything is possible, but somehow, I don’t think TM is going to run with that. At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised if they went with something like Greater Odin/Lesser Odin stuff and, IIRC, a reference to an instance where Odin (and some other god whose name escapes me at the moment) dedicated himself to himself as proof of that concept.

[fumei]

After LB6 I doubt we're ever seeing Odin in the flesh, tbh. This is as close as we'll get.

[All fictions]

Shhhh not allowed to criticize golden boy.

Eye rolling aside, I'm pretty sure it's one of the criticism of Fate/Zero, where Kirei's fall is due to Gil acting like a devil on his shoulder rather than a more organic way.

[Petrikow]

After LB6 I doubt we're ever seeing Odin in the flesh, tbh. This is as close as we'll get.

I like his shady presence, its very appropriate.

[Reign]

I also think it fits for Odin.

[Deathhappens]

Eye rolling aside, I'm pretty sure it's one of the criticism of Fate/Zero, where Kirei's fall is due to Gil acting like a devil on his shoulder rather than a more organic way.

Why would Gil care about making Kirei "a good person"? He took him from someone just going through the motions of life to someone who found pleasure in living it and as a neat side effect made him someone he, Gil, found interesting to watch. If a bunch of orphans ended up dying, oh well, can't make an omelet without someone somewhere suffering in abject agony. Gil was acting exactly as Gil always acts, on a whim.

[Comun]

To me the best summary of Gilgamesh is that one line from his CCC backstory.

This era was born from man letting greed define its race.
Because the king ordered to pass judgement on man’s beastly nature approved their greed.
Because the king allowed all to steal.

Gil is just entirely pro-greed. He hoard everything because he was the strongest, but if someone was stronger and stole back from him, he'd think that's fair.

His weird hobby of playing therapists to his Masters works because it fits his core mentality. Kotomine, Hakuno, and Tine were all people no personal desire, so Gilgamesh guided them to awaken their own personal brand of greed. On the other hand, Tokiomi and Shirou, the people he dislikes, completely internalized desires that belong to someone else, so Gilgamesh finds their desires fake and worthless.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Shirou is obvious. But Tokiomi? Where does it say that?

[Comun]

It says Tokiomi is boring and iirc doesn't say why Tokiomi is boring, so we have to rely on pattern recognition.

[All fictions]

Why would Gil care about making Kirei "a good person"? He took him from someone just going through the motions of life to someone who found pleasure in living it and as a neat side effect made him someone he, Gil, found interesting to watch. If a bunch of orphans ended up dying, oh well, can't make an omelet without someone somewhere suffering in abject agony. Gil was acting exactly as Gil always acts, on a whim.

Wherever have I said the criticism is about how Gil should make Kirei a good person? What a bizarre interpretation.

No, Gil is perfectly in character, the problem here was Kirei's arc. From FSN alone, we get glimpses of him struggling hard to not fall to his true nature and the whole thing about his wife and how it made him reach the conclusion about being true to himself. FZ's way of adding to it is not interesting, because it's mostly just Gil egging Kirei on instead of him reaching the conclusion alone through what he experiences in the war (thinking he found a kindred spirit in Kiritsugu, seeing Ryunosuke being true to his desires as a killer [and wouldn't that give this character more weight], interacting with similarly identity seeking Assassin, etc.)

Gilgamesh being the catalyst instead of one of the factors feel cheaper somehow.

It says Tokiomi is boring and iirc doesn't say why Tokiomi is boring, so we have to rely on pattern recognition.

Is this it, when Gil goes to take a walk to see the sights?

As an Archer, Gilgamesh’s skill of Independent Action is ranked A. With this alone, he can use Noble Phantasms at will in battle and remain in the present world without the Master’s backup … But by having this, the King of Heroes was able to ignore Tokiomi’s inclination and stroll around in Fuyuki City as he wished. Constantly apart from each other, Tokiomi can never be aware of his own Servant’s whereabouts, or of what he is doing.

Having not a single interest in his own world, Tokiomi cannot understand what amusement a man like the King of Heroes can find by walking around to watch people’s lives.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

So I tried to look up stuff about Tokiomi in the meantime. The one thing Gil pointed out that he found Tokiomi 'boring', would be his desire to reach the Root. It's basically most magi's dream. I think I understand why Gil thinks so, and he might have the same impression were he summoned by any other magus who shares that viewpoint.

- - - Updated - - -

Is this it, when Gil goes to take a walk to see the sights?

So they're incompatible as well.

[Byegod]

So why goes gil hate consumerism if he is pro greed lol

On odin, Odin did disguise himself to do things, but usually there are several stories where he does reveal himself at the end.

[Ideofago]

Consumerism is about purchasing and consuming, not about having.

That and the nature of contemporary consumerism, mindless drones, marketing, fake desires and all that jazz.

His perception of greed is always to be authentic and individual, antithetical to the above phrase.

[Altima of the Gates]

Eye rolling aside, I'm pretty sure it's one of the criticism of Fate/Zero, where Kirei's fall is due to Gil acting like a devil on his shoulder rather than a more organic way.

This mainly. For someone supposedly so wise and discerning, he decidedly tried to make him edge further to the schadenfreude side rather than comment on the fact that his anguish is supposed to be that he was raised with ideals of righteousness in the church, so his natural inclinations struck dissonance.
So instead of letting him decide naturally where to stand and if he could mitigate that desire for schadenfreude in better ways than harming people, he just tells him to enjoy hurting them.
Even if he felt this was "more natural" based on his internal disposition, that this was slanted really heavily. But then again, clairvoyance or not, its not like Kinpikais a licensed therapist, as the next example shows.
Because Gil also, with all his power, told Sakura that she should kill herself, and Nasu says Gil believes it to be mercy. So...I'd question his methodology, given he tells one dude to just go hog wild causing the issues leading to this young girl being tainted, but tells the young girl to just kill herself. Though supposedly there was that Fate/Next Encounter thing which I dunno how canon that would be, where loli Sakura was his master and their team is called "A Forming Bond".

So who knows. A lot of time Gil seems to be framed as enigmatic for the sake of it.

[Byegod]

This mainly. For someone supposedly so wise and discerning, he decidedly tried to make him edge further to the schadenfreude side rather than comment on the fact that his anguish is supposed to be that he was raised with ideals of righteousness in the church, so his natural inclinations struck dissonance.
So instead of letting him decide naturally where to stand and if he could mitigate that desire for schadenfreude in better ways than harming people, he just tells him to enjoy hurting them.
Even if he felt this was "more natural" based on his internal disposition, that this was slanted really heavily. But then again, clairvoyance or not, its not like Kinpikais a licensed therapist, as the next example shows.
Because Gil also, with all his power, told Sakura that she should kill herself, and Nasu says Gil believes it to be mercy. So...I'd question his methodology, given he tells one dude to just go hog wild causing the issues leading to this young girl being tainted, but tells the young girl to just kill herself. Though supposedly there was that Fate/Next Encounter thing which I dunno how canon that would be, where loli Sakura was his master and their team is called "A Forming Bond".

So who knows. A lot of time Gil seems to be framed as enigmatic for the sake of it.

Well writing someone to be wise would preclude gil being stupid,

But that suicide bit, that feels something more telling of nasu than anything else I feel

[NINE-lives]

Showerthought: you could actually draw a lot of comparisons between Sigmund (father of Sigurd) and Arthur pendragon. Both had their “sword in the stone”. Both accidentally fucked their sister. Both had a nephew/son to go on adventures with. The difference between them is that Arthur had everything given to him while Sigmund suffered for his entire life and had to work for everything.