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Thread: The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

  1. #33181
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle All fictions's Avatar
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    My view of how Zouken is written pretty much aligns with Pinetree's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Didn't Kiara's tragic backstory come before her villain reveal? I don't remember the order of the events in chapter 7 too clearly.
    Kiara's Secret Garden "Philanthropy", about her genuine desire for mankind's salvation and people constantly betraying her while the utocracy/Church pursued her, is in chapter 4 I believe.

    Dunno about when she was sick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Punching out some nerd doesn't make you a better magus.

  2. #33182
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    There are snippets that do imply there is more to Kiara than the Demonic Bodhisattva bit and the fact that somewhere in her mind, she thinks she is doing the unilateral right thing. Even the narcissism is implied to be based on her viewpoint of humanity with her being the only human and the rest being beasts.

    I mean, people like Kirei and his motivation is fundamentally "I don't like that I have these urges" or rather "I don't like that I was brought up to be conscious of a sense that would dislike these urges inside me". And he manipulated and tortured kids, tossed his daughter to heretic hating psychos with a spirit based birth defect, and the list goes on.
    You definitely don't have to be good, and the people who like him aren't going to be repulsed by those facts.

    It would be up to someone better than I and qualified to determine if both of these are treatable or if they were lost causes. Probably would be difficult given they are very intelligent and have a strong framework for their ideologies.
    Well, post Gil Kirei I guess, maybe he'd be more receptive before the Gil stuff. Though ha, wouldn't that be an extra mark on Gil in that Mr. Clairvoyant took an easily manipulated person and decided to push him over the edge instead of giving him honest help? He wouldn't even have the excuse of the 10 years being sick of humanity or the mud making him more excited.

  3. #33183
    Shhhh not allowed to criticize golden boy.

    But to change topic, shower thought i had

    The maximised mystery spell for modern day would involve the equivalent of machine learning, you dont know how it got the result after all

  4. #33184
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle
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    Fun thought: divine spirits can be summoned without a host if they used to be or became human. Odin disguised himself as human a bunch of time’s meaning that he became human for a bit meaning that he can be summoned without a host based on his episodes of concealing himself among the humans.

  5. #33185
    一心浄土 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    I mean, Tamamo exists.


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  6. #33186
    不死 Undead Huralok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NINE-lives View Post
    Fun thought: divine spirits can be summoned without a host if they used to be or became human. Odin disguised himself as human a bunch of time’s meaning that he became human for a bit meaning that he can be summoned without a host based on his episodes of concealing himself among the humans.
    Anything is possible, but somehow, I don’t think TM is going to run with that. At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised if they went with something like Greater Odin/Lesser Odin stuff and, IIRC, a reference to an instance where Odin (and some other god whose name escapes me at the moment) dedicated himself to himself as proof of that concept.

  7. #33187
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    After LB6 I doubt we're ever seeing Odin in the flesh, tbh. This is as close as we'll get.
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    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  8. #33188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Shhhh not allowed to criticize golden boy.
    Eye rolling aside, I'm pretty sure it's one of the criticism of Fate/Zero, where Kirei's fall is due to Gil acting like a devil on his shoulder rather than a more organic way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Punching out some nerd doesn't make you a better magus.

  9. #33189
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    After LB6 I doubt we're ever seeing Odin in the flesh, tbh. This is as close as we'll get.
    I like his shady presence, its very appropriate.

  10. #33190
    whydunit Reign's Avatar
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    I also think it fits for Odin.

  11. #33191
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    Eye rolling aside, I'm pretty sure it's one of the criticism of Fate/Zero, where Kirei's fall is due to Gil acting like a devil on his shoulder rather than a more organic way.
    Why would Gil care about making Kirei "a good person"? He took him from someone just going through the motions of life to someone who found pleasure in living it and as a neat side effect made him someone he, Gil, found interesting to watch. If a bunch of orphans ended up dying, oh well, can't make an omelet without someone somewhere suffering in abject agony. Gil was acting exactly as Gil always acts, on a whim.
    shit BL says

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    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.
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    boytoy angst > fulfilling life of misanthropic extremist environmentalism
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    ladies, he's single
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    Yeah, but that's because he's got more issues than National Geographic.
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  12. #33192
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    To me the best summary of Gilgamesh is that one line from his CCC backstory.

    This era was born from man letting greed define its race.
    Because the king ordered to pass judgement on man’s beastly nature approved their greed.
    Because the king allowed all to steal.
    Gil is just entirely pro-greed. He hoard everything because he was the strongest, but if someone was stronger and stole back from him, he'd think that's fair.

    His weird hobby of playing therapists to his Masters works because it fits his core mentality. Kotomine, Hakuno, and Tine were all people no personal desire, so Gilgamesh guided them to awaken their own personal brand of greed. On the other hand, Tokiomi and Shirou, the people he dislikes, completely internalized desires that belong to someone else, so Gilgamesh finds their desires fake and worthless.

  13. #33193
    祖 Ancestor OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Shirou is obvious. But Tokiomi? Where does it say that?
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    Record so far

  14. #33194
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    It says Tokiomi is boring and iirc doesn't say why Tokiomi is boring, so we have to rely on pattern recognition.

  15. #33195
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle All fictions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Why would Gil care about making Kirei "a good person"? He took him from someone just going through the motions of life to someone who found pleasure in living it and as a neat side effect made him someone he, Gil, found interesting to watch. If a bunch of orphans ended up dying, oh well, can't make an omelet without someone somewhere suffering in abject agony. Gil was acting exactly as Gil always acts, on a whim.
    Wherever have I said the criticism is about how Gil should make Kirei a good person? What a bizarre interpretation.

    No, Gil is perfectly in character, the problem here was Kirei's arc. From FSN alone, we get glimpses of him struggling hard to not fall to his true nature and the whole thing about his wife and how it made him reach the conclusion about being true to himself. FZ's way of adding to it is not interesting, because it's mostly just Gil egging Kirei on instead of him reaching the conclusion alone through what he experiences in the war (thinking he found a kindred spirit in Kiritsugu, seeing Ryunosuke being true to his desires as a killer [and wouldn't that give this character more weight], interacting with similarly identity seeking Assassin, etc.)

    Gilgamesh being the catalyst instead of one of the factors feel cheaper somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    It says Tokiomi is boring and iirc doesn't say why Tokiomi is boring, so we have to rely on pattern recognition.
    Is this it, when Gil goes to take a walk to see the sights?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fate/Zero vol. 1 Act 2
    As an Archer, Gilgamesh’s skill of Independent Action is ranked A. With this alone, he can use Noble Phantasms at will in battle and remain in the present world without the Master’s backup … But by having this, the King of Heroes was able to ignore Tokiomi’s inclination and stroll around in Fuyuki City as he wished. Constantly apart from each other, Tokiomi can never be aware of his own Servant’s whereabouts, or of what he is doing.

    Having not a single interest in his own world, Tokiomi cannot understand what amusement a man like the King of Heroes can find by walking around to watch people’s lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Punching out some nerd doesn't make you a better magus.

  16. #33196
    祖 Ancestor OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    So I tried to look up stuff about Tokiomi in the meantime. The one thing Gil pointed out that he found Tokiomi 'boring', would be his desire to reach the Root. It's basically most magi's dream. I think I understand why Gil thinks so, and he might have the same impression were he summoned by any other magus who shares that viewpoint.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post

    Is this it, when Gil goes to take a walk to see the sights?
    So they're incompatible as well.
    My current support slots


    Record so far

  17. #33197
    So why goes gil hate consumerism if he is pro greed lol

    On odin, Odin did disguise himself to do things, but usually there are several stories where he does reveal himself at the end.

  18. #33198
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle Temflakes403's Avatar
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    Consumerism is about purchasing and consuming, not about having.

    That and the nature of contemporary consumerism, mindless drones, marketing, fake desires and all that jazz.

    His perception of greed is always to be authentic and individual, antithetical to the above phrase.
    Spoiler:
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    A Fond Farewell to Type-Moon is a fucking gold mine.


  19. #33199
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    Eye rolling aside, I'm pretty sure it's one of the criticism of Fate/Zero, where Kirei's fall is due to Gil acting like a devil on his shoulder rather than a more organic way.
    This mainly. For someone supposedly so wise and discerning, he decidedly tried to make him edge further to the schadenfreude side rather than comment on the fact that his anguish is supposed to be that he was raised with ideals of righteousness in the church, so his natural inclinations struck dissonance.
    So instead of letting him decide naturally where to stand and if he could mitigate that desire for schadenfreude in better ways than harming people, he just tells him to enjoy hurting them.
    Even if he felt this was "more natural" based on his internal disposition, that this was slanted really heavily. But then again, clairvoyance or not, its not like Kinpikais a licensed therapist, as the next example shows.
    Because Gil also, with all his power, told Sakura that she should kill herself, and Nasu says Gil believes it to be mercy. So...I'd question his methodology, given he tells one dude to just go hog wild causing the issues leading to this young girl being tainted, but tells the young girl to just kill herself. Though supposedly there was that Fate/Next Encounter thing which I dunno how canon that would be, where loli Sakura was his master and their team is called "A Forming Bond".

    So who knows. A lot of time Gil seems to be framed as enigmatic for the sake of it.

  20. #33200
    Quote Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
    This mainly. For someone supposedly so wise and discerning, he decidedly tried to make him edge further to the schadenfreude side rather than comment on the fact that his anguish is supposed to be that he was raised with ideals of righteousness in the church, so his natural inclinations struck dissonance.
    So instead of letting him decide naturally where to stand and if he could mitigate that desire for schadenfreude in better ways than harming people, he just tells him to enjoy hurting them.
    Even if he felt this was "more natural" based on his internal disposition, that this was slanted really heavily. But then again, clairvoyance or not, its not like Kinpikais a licensed therapist, as the next example shows.
    Because Gil also, with all his power, told Sakura that she should kill herself, and Nasu says Gil believes it to be mercy. So...I'd question his methodology, given he tells one dude to just go hog wild causing the issues leading to this young girl being tainted, but tells the young girl to just kill herself. Though supposedly there was that Fate/Next Encounter thing which I dunno how canon that would be, where loli Sakura was his master and their team is called "A Forming Bond".

    So who knows. A lot of time Gil seems to be framed as enigmatic for the sake of it.
    Well writing someone to be wise would preclude gil being stupid,

    But that suicide bit, that feels something more telling of nasu than anything else I feel

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