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Thread: The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

  1. #33141
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle Temflakes403's Avatar
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    I don't feel like being cancelled in ten years time, so I edited out this message.
    Last edited by Temflakes403; November 26th, 2021 at 09:46 PM.
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  2. #33142
    Which ones do you defend lmao

    On that though, I feel like one of the reasons i dont care about any attempt to make zouken more than he is, is due to that + the abuse hitting really close ( the abuse that is)

    Plus it doesnt add anything, its just irritating to go 'he was friends with x and y servant'

  3. #33143
    Greatness, at any cost mAc Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Of course then we are getting into fanfic, which is fine But I feel at least for me it would just go "character is wrong/magi is wrong"
    That is basically all interesting discussion though, outside of just checking facts.

    I love reading people's interpretations of things and speculations.
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  4. #33144
    Yeah i agree, i am being slightly hypocritical on this

    If you wanna hear my interpretations lmao, I'm all willing to give my ideas
    Last edited by Byegod; November 24th, 2021 at 02:08 PM.

  5. #33145
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle Temflakes403's Avatar
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    I don't feel like being cancelled in ten years time, so I edited out this message.
    Last edited by Temflakes403; November 26th, 2021 at 09:47 PM.
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    I get this vague feeling from your posts that you're looking down on people who don't share your view, which is what it is, but at least take a moment to snort some common sense between those hits of pretension.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinach View Post
    My opinion is better than your opinion, so it isn't up for debate.
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    Telling us that you're rich is not going to make anyone stop laughing at you for believing in self-insert NTR.
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    You seriously underestimate the human potential for wanting to fuck stuff, my dude.
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    Welcome to BL, new user. Don't forget to fate/stay mad
    Quote Originally Posted by Sione
    Prententious killjoys with comically academic "critiques" are just as annoying as braindead gachoomers. This is the only valid horseshoe.
    A Fond Farewell to Type-Moon is a fucking gold mine.


  6. #33146
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle All fictions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Which ones do you defend lmao

    On that though, I feel like one of the reasons i dont care about any attempt to make zouken more than he is, is due to that + the abuse hitting really close ( the abuse that is)

    Plus it doesnt add anything, its just irritating to go 'he was friends with x and y servant'
    I mean, it's been there since his death scene in the original game.

    I don't mind Zouken for that, especially since he's more clinically evil about the worms (aka "I'm throwing X to the worms for X goal") than delighting in it, if that makes sense? I'm actually more like you in regard to Shinji, whose evil is petty and personal, and I just can't empathize with his motives since he's still a rapist.

    Zouken is someone so old he forgot why he did the thing he did for what was originally a noble goal. Shinji is just kind of pathetic.

    That's just my personal opinion tho.
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  7. #33147
    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    I mean, it's been there since his death scene in the original game.

    I don't mind Zouken for that, especially since he's more clinically evil about the worms (aka "I'm throwing X to the worms for X goal") than delighting in it, if that makes sense? I'm actually more like you in regard to Shinji, whose evil is petty and personal, and I just can't empathize with his motives since he's still a rapist.

    Zouken is someone so old he forgot why he did the thing he did for what was originally a noble goal. Shinji is just kind of pathetic.

    That's just my personal opinion tho.
    I mean was it ever really said he was friends with para or vinci in OG fate, I dont think so.
    BUT i think the real tell would be how mentally aware he was when he started the combo of rape + cannibalism + bestiality that are crest worms, like if we are to use fgo zouken he seemed extremely lucid in the 1880s or whatever vs the 1930s/40s of apocrypha/HGW3

    That one data point would change so so much, and from some perspectives it seems impractical to have the rape aspect as part of the crest worms outside of sheer sadism.

    Then there is the fact that zouken is lucid, he may forgotten some things but he himself is very lucid and aware, this isn't shiki being possessed, he is fully aware of what is going on and what he is doing regardless.

    And what was that one saying "intentions matter not, deeds do" or something along those lines

    And also that sadism often wins out over practicality for zouken, like kariya, sure he may have not been good but zouken didnt need to do such a hateful job or purposefully sabotage him with berserker summoning or eating the mothers or letting shinji rape sakura

    I hope this is coherent or understandable

    TLDR : any argument of forgetfullness is undercut by the planning and lucidity zouken does have.
    Last edited by Byegod; November 24th, 2021 at 06:01 PM.

  8. #33148
    Quote Originally Posted by Temflakes403 View Post
    There are moments where I actually defend Nasu's use of rape.
    Jesus Christ.
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    HF felt like Nasu holding up a megaphone and screaming, "LOOK AT HOW SAD THIS IS! ISN'T IT SAD? YOU SHOULD FEEL SAD!"


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    >tfw you betray your ideals to get some


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    In short, Japan's syncretism BS striked again.




  9. #33149
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    So you can have professional murderers, blood sacrifices of women and children, and blood-sucking corpses? But rape is the line that you don't want to cross? Can I laugh at those standards? Actually, never mind. I'm the sort to do so, anyway.
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  10. #33150
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle Temflakes403's Avatar
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    Ironically, I can't comprehend the amount of flaws in your reading comprehension.
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    I get this vague feeling from your posts that you're looking down on people who don't share your view, which is what it is, but at least take a moment to snort some common sense between those hits of pretension.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinach View Post
    My opinion is better than your opinion, so it isn't up for debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun
    Telling us that you're rich is not going to make anyone stop laughing at you for believing in self-insert NTR.
    Quote Originally Posted by ResidentSeagull View Post
    You seriously underestimate the human potential for wanting to fuck stuff, my dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan
    Welcome to BL, new user. Don't forget to fate/stay mad
    Quote Originally Posted by Sione
    Prententious killjoys with comically academic "critiques" are just as annoying as braindead gachoomers. This is the only valid horseshoe.
    A Fond Farewell to Type-Moon is a fucking gold mine.


  11. #33151
    死者 Corpse
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    Kinoko Nasu must become a steward of יהוה

  12. #33152
    Quote Originally Posted by LegalLoliLover View Post
    So you can have professional murderers, blood sacrifices of women and children, and blood-sucking corpses? But rape is the line that you don't want to cross? Can I laugh at those standards? Actually, never mind. I'm the sort to do so, anyway.
    Well rape is a very touchy subject due to how its... i would say different from other crimes

    Murder can be justified in narrative for example, self defense/stopping bad guy, vampires can be justified as well cause they need to eat

    Rape however is a crime that is very very very very hard to justify, plus the fact that it leaves people alive afterwards, It's like how familial abuse is a touchy subject.

  13. #33153
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle All fictions's Avatar
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    Thank you for your keen insight as always, LegalLoliLover. Always enhancing the conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    I mean was it ever really said he was friends with para or vinci in OG fate, I dont think so.
    BUT i think the real tell would be how mentally aware he was when he started the combo of rape + cannibalism + bestiality that are crest worms, like if we are to use fgo zouken he seemed extremely lucid in the 1880s or whatever vs the 1930s/40s of apocrypha/HGW3

    That one data point would change so so much, and from some perspectives it seems impractical to have the rape aspect as part of the crest worms outside of sheer sadism.

    Then there is the fact that zouken is lucid, he may forgotten some things but he himself is very lucid and aware, this isn't shiki being possessed, he is fully aware of what is going on and what he is doing regardless.

    And what was that one saying "intentions matter not, deeds do" or something along those lines

    And also that sadism often wins out over practicality for zouken, like kariya, sure he may have not been good but zouken didnt need to do such a hateful job or purposefully sabotage him with berserker summoning or eating the mothers or letting shinji rape sakura

    I hope this is coherent or understandable

    TLDR : any argument of forgetfullness is undercut by the planning and lucidity zouken does have.
    This isn't really a matter of his intentions as I'm not looking to justify or excuse Zouken's deeds, but more like...

    He's just a more interesting villain even with his evil actions? I took your comment about his past acquaintances as meaning that it tried to make Zouken more than he is (an evil worm old man), but my point was that this intent was present since the VN.

    It's not that him forgetting his original goal because his soul is literally rotting means he isn't evil, but it serves as an interesting point of origin to see how far he fell off and why. It's a bit like the dictators who were former revolutionaries fighting back against dictators, it's an interesting "fall from grace" type of person to me.

    Compare with Shinji's inferiority complex and coming from a broken home, which just isn't as interesting to me.

    It's a bit like Kirei and Ryunosuke in the 4th War: one of them is more of a characterized villain than the other.

    Could the Crest Worms not have a sexual aspect to them? Yes absolutely. Just worms as parasites like tapeworms would have been plenty.
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    Punching out some nerd doesn't make you a better magus.

  14. #33154
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    plus the fact that it leaves people alive afterwards
    Now, I'm compelled to post the meme:

    Still, humor aside, that's the biggest reason why rape appears a worse crime than, say, murder, for example. Perception. Perception is stronger when you have a witness describing it, rather than some forensics scientist explaining it.

    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    It's a bit like the dictators who were former revolutionaries fighting back against dictators, it's an interesting "fall from grace" type of person to me.
    I take a far less human view at that, especially given the risings and fallings of the many nations that occupied the land currently known as China. Actually, the basic design of the yin-yang demonstrates it quite well. The black space has a white dot that will eventually take up the black space. That white space has a black dot that will eventually take up the white space. Leaders and nations rise and fall. A "revolutionary" is nothing more than one of those tools that make that phenomena happen.
    Last edited by LegalLoliLover; November 24th, 2021 at 11:02 PM.
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  15. #33155
    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    Thank you for your keen insight as always, LegalLoliLover. Always enhancing the conversation.

    This isn't really a matter of his intentions as I'm not looking to justify or excuse Zouken's deeds, but more like...

    He's just a more interesting villain even with his evil actions? I took your comment about his past acquaintances as meaning that it tried to make Zouken more than he is (an evil worm old man), but my point was that this intent was present since the VN.

    It's not that him forgetting his original goal because his soul is literally rotting means he isn't evil, but it serves as an interesting point of origin to see how far he fell off and why. It's a bit like the dictators who were former revolutionaries fighting back against dictators, it's an interesting "fall from grace" type of person to me.

    Compare with Shinji's inferiority complex and coming from a broken home, which just isn't as interesting to me.

    It's a bit like Kirei and Ryunosuke in the 4th War: one of them is more of a characterized villain than the other.

    Could the Crest Worms not have a sexual aspect to them? Yes absolutely. Just worms as parasites like tapeworms would have been plenty.
    Maybe its just me I find zouken kinda.. boring
    Like he doesnt have the same charisma of a 'big evil' villian that kirei has for example

    Its really hard to put it into words why some big evils are good, and some are just boring
    Some is up to the person, but I often find that with a lot of nasu bads I find that nasu goes far too around to try and justify or make it all philosophical/moral relativism that it starts to get annoying to me, or it feels like nasu wants you to like this character

    like with kiara or olga to me, there is this gap with how nasu see's them and how other people see them.

    Plus the crimes zouken has done just like makes it impossible to feel sympathy in anyway for me

    And its probably gonna be the same whenever nasu tries to put the pity card with the fgo p2 villain
    Last edited by Byegod; November 24th, 2021 at 11:42 PM.

  16. #33156
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Well, I certainly empathize with Kirei. As for Olga... What did she do?
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  17. #33157
    Its more me wondering how in control she is or if nasu will go "oh the beast form is her repressed feeling, but she is still in control"

    Kinda with sakura at times with dark sakura, though i always felt that logic in story didnt make much sense...

  18. #33158
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors madarra's Avatar
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    Emotions dont need to make sense, we do the dumbest shit when we think we can get away with it by shifting the blame.

  19. #33159
    Yeah true

    Personally, this is more a vague question

    But in terms of ideas of magic from other settings, if nasu could import or retcon something to fit that , what would you like to have

    E.G : Change magecraft to resememble magic from x or y thing

  20. #33160
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    the real tell would be how mentally aware he was when he started the combo of rape + cannibalism + bestiality that are crest worms, like if we are to use fgo zouken he seemed extremely lucid in the 1880s or whatever vs the 1930s/40s of apocrypha/HGW3
    Do we know if he was the one who came up with the idea? Maybe it was one of his predecessors

    Hell, maybe kid Zouken had his share of worm time too

    Just sayin
    don't quote me on this

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