The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[Ratman]

I imagine is the same thing comun said. As you can see by carnival phantasm, Sakura, even if not in sacchin territory and despite always havin passionate fans , was treated more of a meme compared to Saber and rin. Even if BB and the other CCC clones are not her, they actually helped her case , the movies even more and altought she still behind saber and rin specially in the west , she finally entered the discussion and even if the memes remain, she is more than that, im surprised how much she grow in the western fan base in the last, lest say four years

By the way, im glad it was not the case, now we had both CCC and this movie trilogy, wich is not perfect, but more than serviceable as adaptation.


PD : hope the same will happen with sacchin some day

I shall take this completely random statement from an indeterminate thread, and follow it up with a miscellaneous Type-Moon thought. As TsukiRe does not seem to be coming, it got me to think some time ago about why exactly Sacchin's route was never written.

The easy answer, the answer that seems obvious, is that it does not fit into the narrative structure of Tsukihime. There is a thematic line going from Arcueid through Akiha to Kohaku, I've had to explain this a surprising amount of times. As 'someone that needs Shiki's help', Sacchin is going to at worst be unrelated to this structure, but at best be another Kohaku, with her story additionally set in an odd area between the near and the far side where we are talking about personal responsibility etc. but also fighting goofy ass sharks in a hotel. Too much too early, you know. Or, it is about something completely different than the rest of Tsukihime, which is why Plus-Disc says it will be released 'in an odd title that's not Tsukihime'. You know, somewhere that the themes of the route will be appropriate.

Now, it is generally accepted that there are commonalities between Kohaku and Sakura, and not just in respect to shock value abuse. Their ordeal in life is a negative element the story revolves around. Kohaku is depicted as a doll that is only held together by mechanical vengeance, and can only muster individuality in the form of negative emotions. Sakura in particular is depicted as a black hole of misfortune, as a vessel of curses that the protagonist nevertheless must try to redeem. What, then, are Sacchin's themes? Well, Sacchin has the Depletion Garden.

Consider what this actually means for her character. She has a Reality Marble that depicts the world as a shriveling wasteland that can only fade and rot away. This is her inner world and nothing besides is her inner world. This cannot be something as simple as 'Sacchin in her route becomes sad about being a vampire', or 'Sacchin is sad Shiki won't fuck her'. This means that Satsuki is a person who profoundly believes without a shadow of doubt that her entire life is nothing but continuously sinking negative value, that there can be nothing good that will possibly happen to someone like her, and she believes this so much that it makes her perfectly in line with anti-humanity, and lets her autism straight into a Reality Marble in two weeks. Consider seriously what 'extraordinary potential' means in the context of what we have learned about Dead Apostles recently. That encounter in the shed suddenly sounds like some serious Asano Inio shit.

How did Satsuki become such a person? Have you ever thought about that? The implication here would not be that it's a lukewarm route in the middle of the game, it would meant that this is the last route, because Satsuki's backstory is going to be far edgier than Kohaku's. Like, I mean her house has to be some kind of a rape factory. It might be so edgy, that Nasu was actually incapable of writing it to its completion. Keep in mind, while I say this, that Melty is set after her normal ending, and the general idea you get once you gather all the pieces is:
1) Nero is the final boss of the route, and dies on the last day, killed by Depletion Garden.
2) Shiki has no idea who Satsuki is after her route. In fact, Shiki dates Arcueid after Satsuki's Normal Ending.
3) Ciel not only knows about Sacchin, but even calls her by her full name - and acts friendly, letting her get away with being a vampire.
The implication I get is that Ciel wiped Shiki's memory because the truth was too much. That would certainly be in line with Satsuki's route being incredibly edgy. I imagine that in the True ending this doesn't happen.

Thoughts?

[Leftovers]

Satsuki's route is in a good position to occupy a liminal space between Near and Far similar to Akiha's but with a Nearer leaning. Ideally it'd be the Heaven's Feel equivalent that forces Tohno out of his comfort zone, strips him of powerful allies and thrusts him into the position of supporting an unstable and dangerous person against the powerful forces that want them dead and the very justifiable reasons why they should be killed before they infringe on daily life and the muggles that inhabit it. An early route divergence could cast both Arcueid and Ciel as antagonists who team up as is their wont to exterminate DAA and Roaspawn and resolve their sexual tension from Melty, which in turn establishes a constant danger to manoeuvre away from, leaving open the possibility of something as crazy as a Nrvnqsr teamup depending on Arc's status and the direction Satsuki's DAA potential is taken, which affects the resolution of the Roa situation considering he's Satsuki's parent vampire, and so on, so forth.

[RoydGolden]

I think it's kind of hard to say what exactly Satsuki's Reality Marble symbolizes thematically when she never got an official route fleshing it out. Does Melty Blood (which I'm pretty sure is the first time Satsuki having a Reality Marble was ever mentioned) go into any detail what it means for her, beyond just the fact she has it as a flashy super-move?

[Leftovers]

It symbolises that she's thirsty..................for blood.

But also for Shiki.

[Comun]

Depletion Garden is a perfect counter to mages, who need mana for magecraft, and elementals, who need mana to survive, but nothing anywhere nearly as harmful to normie humans who never use mana. For all the imagery of the beautiful garden slowly running dry, Depletion Garden is ultimately just a rejection of the supernatural, fitting Satsuki's already well established status as the super ordinary girl wishing just to return to her mundane life.

With that in mind, "Satsuki is a person who profoundly believes without a shadow of doubt that her entire life is nothing but continuously sinking negative value, that there can be nothing good that will possibly happen to someone like her" lines up perfectly with "Sacchin in her route becomes sad about being a vampire". Reality Marbles use the caster's present mindset (evidenced by Shirou and Archer's UBWs having different backgrounds due to the differences, so Satsuki doesn't need a big backstory.

Regardless, the official word on Satsuki's route is:
- It was almost finished, but was ultimately cut for multiple reason, the major one being that "it was so perfect it would overshadow all the other routes". (How seriously is this comment supposed to be taken is anyone's guess)
- The original Melty Blood is set after Satsuki's Normal End, but Re-Act and everything after is set in an impossible AU where vampire Satsuki somehow managed to survive without killing people. In the OG Melty, Shiki reacts really poorly to Sion's mention of Satsuki, with all indicating she doesn't survive her own Normal End.

[You]

Depletion Garden is a perfect counter to mages, who need mana for magecraft,

*clears throat

[Mattias]

You see I always assumed that Satsuki's Dpeeltion Garden was more a symbol of her status as the perpetual Normie of Tsuki. Even after she becomes an undead abomination, her soul resonates that nothing special exists in this world and that's why magecraft is being constantly undermined. She's basically taken the "those two classmate guys" LN trope and tries to apply it to the whole world. Which could also be seen as her trying to regain normalcy despite the tragigiday that befell her. Satsuki just wants to live a quiet, ordinary life. Unlike Arihiko who sees a magical horse loli and just rolls with it, she's magically putting her hands over her ears and shouting "LALALALA" at the top of her lungs.

[Dullahan]

Consider what this actually means for her character. She has a Reality Marble that depicts the world as a shriveling wasteland that can only fade and rot away. This is her inner world and nothing besides is her inner world. This cannot be something as simple as 'Sacchin in her route becomes sad about being a vampire', or 'Sacchin is sad Shiki won't fuck her'. This means that Satsuki is a person who profoundly believes without a shadow of doubt that her entire life is nothing but continuously sinking negative value, that there can be nothing good that will possibly happen to someone like her, and she believes this so much that it makes her perfectly in line with anti-humanity, and lets her autism straight into a Reality Marble in two weeks. Consider seriously what 'extraordinary potential' means in the context of what we have learned about Dead Apostles recently. That encounter in the shed suddenly sounds like some serious Asano Inio shit.

How did Satsuki become such a person? Have you ever thought about that? The implication here would not be that it's a lukewarm route in the middle of the game, it would meant that this is the last route, because Satsuki's backstory is going to be far edgier than Kohaku's. Like, I mean her house has to be some kind of a rape factory. It might be so edgy, that Nasu was actually incapable of writing it to its completion. Keep in mind, while I say this, that Melty is set after her normal ending, and the general idea you get once you gather all the pieces is:
1) Nero is the final boss of the route, and dies on the last day, killed by Depletion Garden.
2) Shiki has no idea who Satsuki is after her route. In fact, Shiki dates Arcueid after Satsuki's Normal Ending.
3) Ciel not only knows about Sacchin, but even calls her by her full name - and acts friendly, letting her get away with being a vampire.
The implication I get is that Ciel wiped Shiki's memory because the truth was too much. That would certainly be in line with Satsuki's route being incredibly edgy. I imagine that in the True ending this doesn't happen.

Thoughts?

That is a reading in line with the general outlook on things Nasu develops through Tsukihime and which comes to a relative maturity in HF. This outlook might be radically abbreviated in the thesis that 'suffering has extraordinary causes but ordinary resolutions', i.e., that intense suffering, such as Sakura's, is basically abnormal because brought about by 'abnormal' means. In this case a decade-long worm rape dungeon womb-eating incest telenovela. This suffering we can call 'resolved' not simply by the elimination of the 'abnormal' factors in her life [the local PTA, seaweed, institutional catholicism, persian immigrants] but primarily and fundamentally - as happens in HF True only - by the positive production of a 'normal' situation, which is here framed as lovey dovey sororal and romantic relations under the cherry blossoms etc.

We all know how this works. Nasu's writing - even when he's writing jokes - proceeds basically through the elaboration of a dialectic between 'normal' and 'abnormal' states of affairs, going through numerous permutations of 'normal contained within abnormal' (high school student in magical deathmatch!) and 'abnormal contained within normal' (going on cute dates with a dark ages warlord!) and so on and so forth. Very complex permutations of this. Eventually, though, all this interplay recombines, or is gathered together (and to a large extent Nasu's writing stands and falls by how well he achieves this crucial part) into a certain a certain artistic statement about some aspect of the 'world'.

Now in this case we are concerned with the subcategory of Nasu's artistic statements which could be called - this is a poor choice of words but I can think of none better - theodical, i.e., related to theodicy, the explanation of the nature and purpose of suffering within the 'world' and of the possibility of human reconciliation to it. The kind of theodical statement or outlook which takes hold in the mature Nasu is one which situates suffering - if only in its extreme manifestations - as basically 'abnormal' and its resolution as achieved by the positive production of a certain 'normality'.

(You'll note that of late Nasu has been placing more emphasis on the latter half of this formulation. You can read the overall plot of FGO part 1, and probably FGO part 2 will do this as well, as - once you dispense with the cosmological/metaphysical set dressing - an overwhelming rejection of the idea of 'abnormal' resolutions to human suffering. The ur-narrative here - as far as otaku media are concerned - is of course Evangelion. It seems likely that as Nasu gets older he will arrive at where Anno was in '95, in producing theodical artistic statements which are in a certain sense 'therapeutic' in that they stage - with a great deal of fantastic set dressing - the overcoming and replacement of 'hysterical misery' with 'ordinary unhappiness' which Freud considered the goal of psychoanalysis. But this is a topic for another time.)

Now as I said you've read the hypothetical 'Sacchin route' in conformity with this outlook on things, what we might call the Mature Nasu Theodicy. Which is to say that if Nasu were to write it today - which I don't believe for a moment that he has or will - it would, I think fairly probably, go along those lines. But I am not convinced, not entirely, that it would have gone along those lines had he written it in 1999.

Because it's in that earlier period, I am thinking mainly in KnK, that we see how the artistic statements he makes along the lines of what will become his 'mature' theodicy are shot through by an earlier, now occulted stratum of thinking on suffering. This we can abbreviate in the thesis that 'suffering has ordinary causes and extraordinary consequences', i.e., that intense suffering is not 'abnormal' in origin but rather arises from the 'normal' situation itself. This is most clearly drawn with the Ogawa mansion residents e.g. Enjou's family - their suffering is not the product of the 'abnormal' but rather arises within the ordinary, 'normal' order of things, of domestic relations, etc. The much-abused term 'everyday life' is here not the resolution but the root of the problem. And the suffering that arises produces consequences that are 'abnormal' - one might say that suffering which exceeds a threshold is 'vomited out' as something supernatural. (To a certain extent this makes you think of DDD, doesn't it? You also can compare this to the arising of 'kaii' in Bakemonogatari for instance; Nisioisin is the first to come to mind when I think of authors with a theodical outlook closer to early nasu than mature nasu. One also also can trace here Nasu's early influence by the detective novels of Kyougoku Natsuhiko - if you go watch the (actually quite good) Madhouse anime adaptation of the 1995 novel Mouryou no Hako you will understand perfectly what I mean.) What happens after that is variable, but clearly it's not essential that suffering be 'resolved'; in this earlier outlook on things it's possible for suffering to be wholly unremediated, unredeemed, a pure loss. In KnK Enjou's 'resolution', such as it is, has to come after death, because he can't get anything back in life: there is no 'normal' situation to return to which would resolve things as they are resolved e.g. in HF True.

To draw this back to Sacchin - it strikes me that what made Sacchin's route so hard to write in 1999 is not that Nasu felt that he necessarily needed to make her backstory even edgier (which is to say, more 'abnormal') than Kohaku's, but, on the contrary, that in keeping with his 'early' theodical outlook, he wanted to try with her to illustrate how, quote, a person who profoundly believes without a shadow of doubt that her entire life is nothing but continuously sinking negative value, that there can be nothing good that will possibly happen to someone like her, unquote, is produced wholly by the 'normal' order of things, in other words that Sacchin is precisely the product and mirror-image, the internal critique if you will, of the 'normal' or 'ordinary' daily life Tohno is oriented toward in every Tsuki route from his meeting with Aoko onward. The problem Nasu faced, I imagine, was that this was in contradiction with the developing theodicy of his mature works already present in Tsukihime, and he couldn't figure out how to do it while keeping Sacchin's route within the overall structure. So he cut it and kept her around as a joke. (laughs)

tldr - Kohaku's route is about living in a (demon) family; Sacchin's route would be about living in a society.

[Leftovers]

h I don't believe for a moment that he has or will - it would, I think fairly probably, go along those lines. But I am not convinced, not entirely, that it would have gone along those lines had he written it in 1999.

Because it's in that earlier period, I am thinking mainly in KnK, that we see how the artistic statements he makes along the lines of what will become his 'mature' theodicy are shot through by an earlier, now occulted stratum of thinking on suffering. This we can abbreviate in the thesis that 'suffering has ordinary causes and extraordinary consequences', i.e., that intense suffering is not 'abnormal' in origin but rather arises from the 'normal' situation itself. This is most clearly drawn with the Ogawa mansion residents e.g. Enjou's family - their suffering is not the product of the 'abnormal' but rather arises within the ordinary, 'normal' order of things, of domestic relations, etc. The much-abused term 'everyday life' is here not the resolution but the root of the problem. And the suffering that arises produces consequences that are 'abnormal' - one might say that suffering which exceeds a threshold is 'vomited out' as something supernatural. (To a certain extent this makes you think of DDD, doesn't it? You also can compare this to the arising of 'kaii' in Bakemonogatari for instance; Nisioisin is the first to come to mind when I think of authors with a theodical outlook closer to early nasu than mature nasu. One also also can trace here Nasu's early influence by the detective novels of Kyougoku Natsuhiko - if you go watch the (actually quite good) Madhouse anime adaptation of the 1995 novel Mouryou no Hako you will understand perfectly what I mean.) What happens after that is variable, but clearly it's not essential that suffering be 'resolved'; in this earlier outlook on things it's possible for suffering to be wholly unremediated, unredeemed, a pure loss. In KnK Enjou's 'resolution', such as it is, has to come after death, because he can't get anything back in life: there is no 'normal' situation to return to which would resolve things as they are resolved e.g. in HF True.

To draw this back to Sacchin - it strikes me that what made Sacchin's route so hard to write in 1999 is not that Nasu felt that he necessarily needed to make her backstory even edgier (which is to say, more 'abnormal') than Kohaku's, but, on the contrary, that in keeping with his 'early' theodical outlook, he wanted to try with her to illustrate how, quote, a person who profoundly believes without a shadow of doubt that her entire life is nothing but continuously sinking negative value, that there can be nothing good that will possibly happen to someone like her, unquote, is produced wholly by the 'normal' order of things, in other words that Sacchin is precisely the product and mirror-image, the internal critique if you will, of the 'normal' or 'ordinary' daily life Tohno is oriented toward in every Tsuki route from his meeting with Aoko onward. The problem Nasu faced, I imagine, was that this was in contradiction with the developing theodicy of his mature works already present in Tsukihime, and he couldn't figure out how to do it while keeping Sacchin's route within the overall structure. So he cut it and kept her around as a joke. (laughs)

DDD is arguably the most overt expression of the supernatural ('demonic possession') given rise from and ultimately expressing inexorable suffering predominantly caused by domestic dysfunction - JtheE alone hammers this in with the premise of the Kizaki and Fusou cases (intolerable conditions, psychological compulsions) and Arika's reaction to them (refusal to commiserate with existential dead-ends in pursuit of his own normality), not to mention the domestic life that produced Sinker. Even then, that supernatural element is nothing but a natural (biological) manifestation of internal reality exceeding human emotional capacity (for containment), from which Agonist provides relief by constructing the means for immediate release. Self feeds into self, internal reality becomes external reality, and any possibility of relating/communicating one's suffering to others becomes (after conventional rejection, insert society meme here) impossible. Shikura is populated by id-incarnate chuunibyous and manic-depressive teenagers precisely because even the smallest wound in private reality can fester and consume a person when left untreated. Because everyday life cannot in itself injure, and any suffering that arises from normality must be the work of outside forces infringing on it, yeah?

Of course Nasu never finished DDD and has spoken about how he has graduated from the mindset that, fittingly, caused it to happen, which speaks volumes (two, to be precise) about the chances of a Satsuki route ever falling along these lines.

[Dullahan]

hire nisio to finish DDD

[Byegod]

*clears throat

I dont get it

[Ratman]

- The original Melty Blood is set after Satsuki's Normal End, but Re-Act and everything after is set in an impossible AU where vampire Satsuki somehow managed to survive without killing people. In the OG Melty, Shiki reacts really poorly to Sion's mention of Satsuki, with all indicating she doesn't survive her own Normal End.

Don't think that's actually required. Everything in ReAct and after is set inside the Hologram Summer, a dreamworld. It changes a bit depending on whether Zepia, White Len, or DoO runs it, but besides some of the ending segments upon waking up and so it's not real. If the Back Alley Alliance can have White Len and Ries in it, neither of which are real, it's not so strange for it to have Satsuki. Though it makes Sion surrounding herself with imaginary friends a bit depressing when you think about it.

I mean, to this day some people fail to understand that Len literally is a cat in real life. WLen is not even that.

I think it's kind of hard to say what exactly Satsuki's Reality Marble symbolizes thematically when she never got an official route fleshing it out. Does Melty Blood (which I'm pretty sure is the first time Satsuki having a Reality Marble was ever mentioned) go into any detail what it means for her, beyond just the fact she has it as a flashy super-move?

It's not like we know -nothing- about the route, you know. Remember how chapter/day names are pretty important in Tsuki? The last few days of Satsuki's route are named that, 'Depletion Garden'. It's a big thematic thing, always has been.

[You]

Remember how chapter/day names are pretty important in Tsuki?

[Ratman]

See, that's like a cypher. They tried to say something. There is inherent meaning, just not in a language other human beings than the author can readily understand.

'Spark Liner High' means something when you think about it. 'Hologram Summer Again, Tri Hermes Black Land' means something. All the stuff on the edges of the screen in melty does, really, it's just data corrupted by Wallachia's and Nasu's insanity both.

[Peanut-007]

See, that's like a cypher. They tried to say something. There is inherent meaning, just not in a language other human beings than the author can readily understand.

'Spark Liner High' means something when you think about it. 'Hologram Summer Again, Tri Hermes Black Land' means something. All the stuff on the edges of the screen in melty does, really, it's just data corrupted by Wallachia's and Nasu's insanity both.

Hologram Summer Again, Tri Hermes Black Land strikes me as a reference to Dust of Osiris but I'm honestly coming up blank on Sparks Liner High beyond Shirou being in highschool and steel on steel making a lot of sparks.

[Ratman]

We now even know that it's 'Tri-Hermes' because the entirity of Actress Again is to a degree a simulation inside of the computer at Atlas. DoO refers to her record thing as 'black land' directly iirc.

Liner is a term. Ghost Liner, Ether Liner, Kaleid Liner. Spark Liner is probably another one of those, refering to Projection. Basically Spark Liner High means 'Shirou goes too far'.

It is basically the same way with all the weirdo names you see Magi and Apostles have. Someone thought they were more clever than they actually were so we deal with Altria, but it is understood that the meaning behind Altria is actually Arthuria no matter how Nasu thinks it should be written. Some of those are not immediatelly obvious, like Animusphere. That makes them no less retarded, but also does not rid them of actual intended meaning.

[Comun]

A spark is a tiny flash of light that naturally fades away the instant it's light.

Runner's high is when marathonists get all hyped as they keep running. Getting hyped up from continually doing something physically burdening. Feeling excited when you're supposed to be feeling tired.

(Ghost) Liner is the one Servant-related word that is one letter away from "runner" (rannaa -> rainaa), enabling the "runner's high" pun.

Sparks Liner High is Shirou having the runner's high of his life. He goes beyond his limits and instead of feeling that physical burden, he just pushes himself even harder. But he goes off like a spark. His runner's high makes him flash for an instant before fading away for good.

[Ratman]

Something like that, yeah.

Then a lot of it is Nasu being a chuuni. You can tell on stuff like the different UBW chant that he's just inserting complication hoping for it to be mistaken for profoundness and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It is difficult to tell when he is merely pretending to be retarded. Hence, these are just cyphers for us to try and figure out.

[Holiday]

And there I was thinking SLH was just an oblique Notes reference. Now that you mention it, I guess there are other "Liners" who are more directly relevant to the scenario in question.

[TwilightsCall]

Do you think Shirou made Shinji into a better person or a worse person than he otherwise would have been?