The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[Formless Creature]

Well, on the other hand, I think if you're that concerned with "authenticity" that you purposefully won't "reject" later information for the sake of enriching your own imaginative version (say, fanfic), then I would posit that arguing that understanding less is better is wrong in the first place, because authenticity in such a context cannot stem from ignorance on the subject. I might even go as far as to say that someone who holds these two opinions at the same time is, as they say, a poser, more than anything concerned with the idea​ of what these opinions represent than their concrete meaning and value.

While I don't really care if someone purposefully gets something "wrong" or chooses to have an alternative interpretation in their fan creations, I think, in my head, the knowledge that I have about something is always going to hold precedence over what I'd previously imagined it to be. Like, even if what I came up with is something that I think is better than what it actually ended up being, the fact that "this is what they chose to go with" will always be something that's in the back of my head. I can't really get myself into a mindset where I can willfully pretend something didn't happen. Like, the Illya example earlier, she's a woefully uninteresting character to me now, and even if I were to write a fanfic where I made her "more" interesting, however I choose to do that, I would probably find it difficult to muster up much enthusiasm just because I'm already not that invested in her character to begin with. The fact that official content is almost always going to have this sort of emotional priority in my head is probably why I've never managed to engage with fanmade stuff on a deeper level like some seem to (though I once used to roleplay a lot, even back then the "am I doing this right? am I interpreting this character 'correctly'" was something that I was always thinking about). Maybe with the exception of CaS the entire fanfic section of the forum might as well not exist to me.

[Random]

Well, on the other hand, I think if you're that concerned with "authenticity" that you purposefully won't "reject" later information for the sake of enriching your own imaginative version (say, fanfic), then I would posit that arguing that understanding less is better is wrong in the first place, because authenticity in such a context cannot stem from ignorance on the subject. I might even go as far as to say that someone who holds these two opinions at the same time is, as they say, a poser, more than anything concerned with the idea​ of what these opinions represent than their concrete meaning and value.

Maybe I phrased that poorly. My position is the other way around. What I think is that the details of the world further develop the worldview of the setting, so maximising your grasp on them is essential to your understanding of the worldview. In fact, if someone dislikes the worldview of a setting, I would even then encourage them to get a firm grasp on what it is that they dislike.

It's not that "less is better". It's that there do exist people who are deterred by the deeper themes of some works, and thus get more out of the surface elements without having those themes intrinsically burned into the high-concept elements. All it means is that they dislike the writer, but found something redeemable in a narrower or more superficial aspect of the writing.

It's adjacent to the idea that you should read bad books for their own sake as well as good ones.

[Comun]

Yeah, but it's Comun, plain girl lover extraordinaire. I would've probably been more shocked if you weren't thinking of her.

Honestly, even without the Tsumugi specification, if I just said "I'm thinking of a character", Tsumugi Shirogane is probably still your safest bet there.

[Formless Creature]

Not Kohaku?

[Comun]

Kohaku is one of the main reasons behind the "probably", yes.

[Maedhros]

Many years ago, before I played the visual novel, I had only a vague idea of Fate/Stay Night. My knowledge of FSN extended to about a one-paragraph description. You had a main character, a boy who learned from his father that he is a "magus," and then he grew up and became involved in a war between magi in a city where he lived, and that was about it; I don't even recall if the concept of Servants entered into my awareness at that stage. But from that short description—which I got (emphasis added) prior to any contact with the VN or with any of the art or the character designs or, indeed, anything else about Type-Moon—I imagined in an overall poorly-defined but in some areas vivid way, what F/SN was like. I imagined, fever-dreamed, the setting as characterised by a highly specific sense of interior design, which I would crudely summarise as 'subtropical vintage.' Wood-paneled walls, brass fittings, rattan furniture, ceiling fans with blades hollowed with woven bamboo lattice lazily endorsing a sultry evening heat, and inamongst all this a lot of fresh foliage, a lot of ferns, palms, aloe to occupy the visual field. The dominant colour palette was mixed goldbrown-nearing-bloodred hardwood and virulent green leaves. Very 'organic' all told. Of the characters I had no real anticipation, but I definitely imagined the background art, so to speak, of F/SN as a city that was, while densely urbanised and thoroughly modern, somehow more reminiscent of the lingering colonial footprint in South-East Asia rather than anywhere you'd find in Japan.

Then of course I played the VN and found out that F/SN was actually nothing like this, neither visually nor (insofar as this had entered into my imagination) tonally. Fuyuki is Anywhere, Japan (the anonymous megalopolis all anime takes place in, a product of countless walks home from school and unusually flexible municipal zoning law) plus fragments of a disjointed European stratum strewn around like broken pottery plus a few altogether fantastic locations for good measure. This was in its own way interesting, peculiar, characteristically 'Nasu' in a way which only became clear much later on. But in some and other ways I remain interested in the vague idea I had of F/SN before I knew what it was. Nasu settings have, up to a point, a homeopathic effect. More interesting the less you know, and the most feather-light touch of knowledge can well be the most interesting of all. But then again, the other interesting parts appear only once you know far too much. There's no hope for moderation here, knowing just enough—enough for what? To get the memes? Worthless. Nasu is worth appreciating only at the extremities.

I've thought along similar lines before; not about Nasu, I had a rather poor early impression of Fate, but very often I feel nostalgic for how I felt about some work when I was younger and newer, for the half-remembered images of interpretations I no longer hold. Sometimes this is after getting deep into sequels and spin-offs and the like, and sometimes these works are standalones that I've simply come to think of differently. The key word, though, is nostalgic; it's bullshit. The same vague longing for a misremembered past that makes high school seem fun in retrospect. There are cases where getting in to something can legitimately be worse than not knowing much-maybe it turns out to be bad, maybe you find yourself immersed in a shitty fandom that ruins it for you, maybe it goes downhill with later installments, etc-but when it comes to works that I truly enjoy, that thought that maybe it was better when you were younger is the same rose-colored bullshit that applies to other memories. Of course, like I said, there are plenty of legitimate cases where one might come to enjoy something less once they know more of it, so it may well be true for you that Nasu was "worth appreciating only at the extremities." In my experience, though, it's often just nostalgia under the surface.

On the topic of early impressions of Nasu and the current state of the franchise, as someone who got in to this series relatively late, my first impression was that I had missed the boat. This was maybe a few months or a year before the Tsukihime Remake trailer dropped, and as far as I could tell the last worthwhile thing Nasu had made was Mahoyo. Modern Type-Moon was nothing but spin-offs and adaptations, none of which could live up to my impressions of what had come before, which connected to the early works in only the most superficial of ways (and which I despised, in my bitterness, for having the audacity to claim to be successors to something I loved, and in the worst cases actively besmirching the name-yes, I am aware that I am cranky and overdramatic). So my relationship with Type-Moon has franchise has improved, because I have a little hope that there may be more good Type-Moon works in future, that I might be able to actually purchase the old stuff one of these days.

[UnlimitedBladeWorks]

and as far as I could tell the last worthwhile thing Nasu had made was CCC.

Corrected

[Maedhros]

Corrected

In my thoughts at the time if it started with Fate/ and didn't end with Stay Night, Hollow Ataraxia, or Zero if I was in a good mood, it went into the ignore bin. I'm more willing to give CCC a chance, now, but anyway I am monolingual and also put off by the prospect of going through Extra itself first, of which I have heard far less good.

Also, piggybacking off this to add on more thoughts to my previous comment, I've also come to think lately that there are a lot of works that I'm actually able to better appreciate now, or at least capable of appreciating in different ways or for different reasons, which helps counterbalance that nostalgic impulse. I'll never feel the same fear that childhood me felt when he read about Sauron and the One Ring, but childhood me also never caught Tolkien using alliteration to invoke Old and Middle English poetic stylings or marked the significance of Aragorn proving his kingship through acts of healing instead of war. There's value in both perspectives and in the end I am glad to have seen them both.

[Leftovers]

Maybe I phrased that poorly. My position is the other way around. What I think is that the details of the world further develop the worldview of the setting, so maximising your grasp on them is essential to your understanding of the worldview. In fact, if someone dislikes the worldview of a setting, I would even then encourage them to get a firm grasp on what it is that they dislike.

It's not that "less is better". It's that there do exist people who are deterred by the deeper themes of some works, and thus get more out of the surface elements without having those themes intrinsically burned into the high-concept elements. All it means is that they dislike the writer, but found something redeemable in a narrower or more superficial aspect of the writing.

It's adjacent to the idea that you should read bad books for their own sake as well as good ones.

Couldn't pick my favourite version

[Dullahan]

Big fan of the character Ludwig Wittgenstein from Subarashiki Hibi

[OnesFleetingGlory]

In my thoughts at the time if it started with Fate/ and didn't end with Stay Night, Hollow Ataraxia, or Zero if I was in a good mood, it went into the ignore bin. I'm more willing to give CCC a chance, now, but anyway I am monolingual and also put off by the prospect of going through Extra itself first, of which I have heard far less good.

Record might improve on that in the same vein of TsukiRE. Although, maybe I'm just biased, as someone whose entry point to Nasuverse was Extra.

The announcement of a remake is both a blessing and a curse. On one hand, I might finally be able to experience a TsukiRE of my own, improved and evolved. On the other, TM can really, REALLY take their time when they develop something internally, like we're three months away from next year and still no news. It gets me mixed feelings.

[Maedhros]

Record might improve on that in the same vein of TsukiRE. Although, maybe I'm just biased, as someone whose entry point to Nasuverse was Extra.

The announcement of a remake is both a blessing and a curse. On one hand, I might finally be able to experience a TsukiRE of my own, improved and evolved. On the other, TM can really, REALLY take their time when they develop something internally, like we're three months away from next year and still no news. It gets me mixed feelings.

Yeah, if anything will get me to properly explore the Extra side of things, it'll be Record, if it ever materializes. Apart from CCC, Last Encore is also intriguing, and not having to emulate a middling PSP game makes giving them a proper look much more appealing.

[Comun]

On the other, TM can really, REALLY take their time when they develop something internally, like we're three months away from next year and still no news. It gets me mixed feelings.

That's what really means to experience a TsukiRE of your own.

[tsugumi]

Big fan of the character Ludwig Wittgenstein from Subarashiki Hibi

Spoiler:

[Glazy]

Many years ago, before I played the visual novel, I had only a vague idea of Fate/Stay Night. My knowledge of FSN extended to about a one-paragraph description. You had a main character, a boy who learned from his father that he is a "magus," and then he grew up and became involved in a war between magi in a city where he lived, and that was about it; I don't even recall if the concept of Servants entered into my awareness at that stage. But from that short description—which I got (emphasis added) prior to any contact with the VN or with any of the art or the character designs or, indeed, anything else about Type-Moon—I imagined in an overall poorly-defined but in some areas vivid way, what F/SN was like. I imagined, fever-dreamed, the setting as characterised by a highly specific sense of interior design, which I would crudely summarise as 'subtropical vintage.' Wood-paneled walls, brass fittings, rattan furniture, ceiling fans with blades hollowed with woven bamboo lattice lazily endorsing a sultry evening heat, and inamongst all this a lot of fresh foliage, a lot of ferns, palms, aloe to occupy the visual field. The dominant colour palette was mixed goldbrown-nearing-bloodred hardwood and virulent green leaves. Very 'organic' all told. Of the characters I had no real anticipation, but I definitely imagined the background art, so to speak, of F/SN as a city that was, while densely urbanised and thoroughly modern, somehow more reminiscent of the lingering colonial footprint in South-East Asia rather than anywhere you'd find in Japan.

Then of course I played the VN and found out that F/SN was actually nothing like this, neither visually nor (insofar as this had entered into my imagination) tonally. Fuyuki is Anywhere, Japan (the anonymous megalopolis all anime takes place in, a product of countless walks home from school and unusually flexible municipal zoning law) plus fragments of a disjointed European stratum strewn around like broken pottery plus a few altogether fantastic locations for good measure. This was in its own way interesting, peculiar, characteristically 'Nasu' in a way which only became clear much later on. But in some and other ways I remain interested in the vague idea I had of F/SN before I knew what it was. Nasu settings have, up to a point, a homeopathic effect. More interesting the less you know, and the most feather-light touch of knowledge can well be the most interesting of all. But then again, the other interesting parts appear only once you know far too much. There's no hope for moderation here, knowing just enough—enough for what? To get the memes? Worthless. Nasu is worth appreciating only at the extremities.

Turn back the clock to 2015. The last episode of the UBW anime airs. Shirou and Rin talk about how the Holy Grail War although may be life changing for them for the rest of the world it just one small event out of countless of other event. At the end of the episode Shirou is in the desert with red hair showing how he avoided the fate of Archer. Shirou walks into the desert into the next adventure. Now cut back to me watching this back in 2015 I was enchanted by this. You mean multiple events just like the Holy Grail War exist? That there are bigger things than a Holy Grail War? That we can see stories with the same development and intensity like F/SN? I was excited to see this new world with all the crazy things in it.

Cut back to me now. The world feels.. small, although Shirou may have claimed that there are numerous events like Holy Grail War. Out of universe it's only been Holy Grail Wars. Even FGO the biggest stakes of the franchise all ties back to the Holy Grail Wars. Even stories that doesn't really focus on Holy Grail Wars are somehow still tied to it (El Melloi). Which is fine I suppose some of those Holy Grail War are entertaining it just left me with something more. Honestly how long has it been since we had a nasuverse story completely be original. Like no legacy characters in a major role or tying back into a HGW. Just something new and on the scale of HGW without being a HGW?

[Norayd]

Just something new and on the scale of HGW without being a HGW?

Samurai Remnant has a totally new and original type of ritual called a Waxing Moon Ritual that clearly has nothing to do with an HGW

And for a serious answer, I wanna say DDD but I have no idea when that released

[TomPen94]

Turn back the clock to 2015. The last episode of the UBW anime airs. Shirou and Rin talk about how the Holy Grail War although may be life changing for them for the rest of the world it just one small event out of countless of other event. At the end of the episode Shirou is in the desert with red hair showing how he avoided the fate of Archer. Shirou walks into the desert into the next adventure. Now cut back to me watching this back in 2015 I was enchanted by this. You mean multiple events just like the Holy Grail War exist? That there are bigger things than a Holy Grail War? That we can see stories with the same development and intensity like F/SN? I was excited to see this new world with all the crazy things in it.

Cut back to me now. The world feels.. small, although Shirou may have claimed that there are numerous events like Holy Grail War. Out of universe it's only been Holy Grail Wars. Even FGO the biggest stakes of the franchise all ties back to the Holy Grail Wars. Even stories that doesn't really focus on Holy Grail Wars are somehow still tied to it (El Melloi). Which is fine I suppose some of those Holy Grail War are entertaining it just left me with something more. Honestly how long has it been since we had a nasuverse story completely be original. Like no legacy characters in a major role or tying back into a HGW. Just something new and on the scale of HGW without being a HGW?

Are you talking Nasuverse or just Fate? Tsuki got big without a HGW. Mahoyo deals with big stuff without it being a HGW. They aren't that many entries but they are pretty big and important ones.

Outside of that, I do feel you. It also irks me that in Fate everything seems to have to revolve around a HGW. There are barely any Fate stories out there that don't start by reinventing the Holy Grail wheel in order to have a bunch of Servants running around. The world doesn't seem small to me however, because I've experienced other things ike the aforementioned Tsuki and Mahoyo stuff. What it does feel is unexplored, with every writer seemingly just interested in beating the Servant concept to the ground to the point they don't feel special anymore.

[Kamera]

Honestly how long has it been since we had a nasuverse story completely be original. Like no legacy characters in a major role or tying back into a HGW. Just something new and on the scale of HGW without being a HGW?

It's a shame because the Nasuverse has all the framework and foundation laid out for the perfect urban fantasy setting where anything can happen, but Type-Moon somehow still concentrate all the storytelling on just a handful concepts rehashed over and over. Case Files is truly the only thing that tries to do something new with the setting, but it somehow still felt even more lame than just doing HGWs, not only because the author is ass, but also especially because it still clings stubbornly to "referencing previous TM works" and ends up just revisiting the same thing over and over.

- - - Updated - - -

To me the final enlightenment in understanding Type Moon lore is realizing that it has one of the best framework for potentially boundless urban fantasy story in any fiction ever, but also realizing that Type Moon themselves would never do anything about it, not in at least 20 years.

[Dartz]

Are you talking Nasuverse or just Fate? Tsuki got big without a HGW. Mahoyo deals with big stuff without it being a HGW. They aren't that many entries but they are pretty big and important ones.

Outside of that, I do feel you. It also irks me that in Fate everything seems to have to revolve around a HGW. There are barely any Fate stories out there that don't start by reinventing the Holy Grail wheel in order to have a bunch of Servants running around. The world doesn't seem small to me however, because I've experienced other things ike the aforementioned Tsuki and Mahoyo stuff. What it does feel is unexplored, with every writer seemingly just interested in beating the Servant concept to the ground to the point they don't feel special anymore.

Aylesbury Geocentrism eventually. It will easily be the TM event to end all TM events.

[Kamera]

Gatekept behind Tsukihime 2, gatekept behind Mahoyo 2 & 3, behind Tsukihime Remake part 2, behind FGO part 3