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Thread: The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

  1. #33161
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    From what it sounds like, it was something he came up with to live longer in order to obtain "material" in order to realize his ambitions, so his own creation.
    The key point was that he never hands over his crest or actually trains his family members, its been him that has been "reintroducing" himself in the family registrar for centuries. They had been on the decline since turning away apprentices for decades.
    I don't even think they make mention anywhere of who represented the Makiri in the first 3 wars.
    Which make the implications about Byakuya and Kariya's parents circumstances hazy at absolute best. But Sakura mentions that she heard her foster grandmother planted the tree outside the residence in Hollow, so....
    Last edited by Altima of the Gates; November 25th, 2021 at 10:14 AM.

  2. #33162
    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    Do we know if he was the one who came up with the idea? Maybe it was one of his predecessors

    Hell, maybe kid Zouken had his share of worm time too

    Just sayin
    I mean I do think that would help, maybe thats why nasu avoids showing zouken becuase thats a big question to answer

    And of course that would still mean he perpetuated a cycle of abuse

    Am i sounding reasonable here?

  3. #33163
    Honestly, what bothers me about Zouken is not so much that he has a tragic past and a "reason" for being evil, what bothers me is that after all the horrible things, Nasu did he wants us to sympathize with him even though the only one reason for doing it is only revealed to us after we saw him do all those horrible things, right before his death and practically out of nowhere, as they said, the same thing happens to Kiara, the things they did and the way they did them are too horrible for me to really sympathize with them in the least, and I would honestly find them far better villains if Nasu didn't want me to forget all the bad things they did with a smile just because they had a shitty life.
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  4. #33164
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    Didn't Kiara's tragic backstory come before her villain reveal? I don't remember the order of the events in chapter 7 too clearly.

  5. #33165
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfredo845 View Post
    Honestly, what bothers me about Zouken is not so much that he has a tragic past and a "reason" for being evil, what bothers me is that after all the horrible things, Nasu did he wants us to sympathize with him even though the only one reason for doing it is only revealed to us after we saw him do all those horrible things, right before his death and practically out of nowhere, as they said, the same thing happens to Kiara, the things they did and the way they did them are too horrible for me to really sympathize with them in the least, and I would honestly find them far better villains if Nasu didn't want me to forget all the bad things they did with a smile just because they had a shitty life.
    I never saw the reveal of his old wish as an attempt to make the reader empathize with Zouken, I saw it as a last statement showing how far he had fallen as well as a point of comparison to how successful Shirou was as a person in Heaven's Feel.

    In regards to Zouken being buddies with Heroic Spirits, I think it's one of the coolest things they've done with his character honestly. We already knew he was old, but attaching him to some of the best and brightest people in history, even if it's just throught statements in Materials and such, only works to make his descent into depravity all the more extreme. And it really does need to be extreme to justify his character.
    Last edited by pinetree; November 25th, 2021 at 07:24 PM.

  6. #33166
    whydunit Reign's Avatar
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    I have to agree, Zouken's character is meant to be read as a tragic fall but that doesn't mean you're meant to sympathize with him, more like pity him.

  7. #33167
    I definitely do feel like nasu wants us to sympathize with villains at this point as he does this with so many damn villains.

    Or tries to justify what they did with philosophical stuff that most wont agree with (fucking twice)

    And tragedy requires sympathy/pity does it not?

  8. #33168
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle
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    Good characterization for villains generally at least gives you a glimpse into their inner logic and workings. There can be room for likability and even sympathy for who they were rather than who they are. The author just needs to avoid acting like that justifies what they did unless they're writing a morally grey story.

  9. #33169
    Is there any TM villain tier list somewhere? I remember seeing it ages ago.

  10. #33170
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle Temflakes403's Avatar
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    Making a villain understandable, logical, and human is not asking you to simpathize with them; merely to believe that they had their own reasoning, and are not cartoonishly evil. Further still, having villains that share in the morals of the protagonist to some extent is insuring that their themes serve as a counterpoint to the hero's own themes, for example, the lack of self experienced by Kotomine and Shirou. Further further still, tragedy requires not simpathy; it can be understood from a purely apathetical point of view. What changes is if it can be felt, and that is ultimately up to the reader. Explaining =/= justifying.
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  11. #33171
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Besides, if you're going to actually symphatize with any part of Zouken, it's not going to be with his absurd dream to save humanity with some crazy magic ritual, it's going to be with his very real struggle with death.

    I hadn't dealt with my own fear of death when I originally read FSN and his first conversation with Hassan hit fucking hard.
    Him choosing to continue living in absolute agony and summarily denying that death could be a solution to it because of his complete panic at the idea he isn't going to be anymore is very compelling. Specially when he throws his tantrums after Ilya keeps throwing the solution to his pain at his face.

  12. #33172
    Fear of death is a perfectly valid thing

    Even for a immortal

    I still cant, like to move away from the sympathy argument, his character to me is "overshadowed" by the actions towards sakura and kariya and so on.

    Like to use a similar example, one's body not working is something I can get, even if i have minor conditions (tremors, maybe coordination and my left foot isnt working well anymore) It's just hard for me.

    Actually I think some of this also could relate as to why I reject a lot of nasu's ideas on servants AND on magic itself, I've seem some of the limits regarding medical science, in terms of shit like "does this work? no, does this next one work? no, does this next one work, kinda but the side effects make it not very useful if i want to be functional)

  13. #33173
    迷迭暗箱 Rosemary Obscura Kamera's Avatar
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    does Zouken still have Barbatos gene in FSN timeline? or is that just a singularity exclusive thing?

  14. #33174
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamera View Post
    does Zouken still have Barbatos gene in FSN timeline? or is that just a singularity exclusive thing?
    It's something that was planted since the start of their Magic Crest so he should still have it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    I still cant, like to move away from the sympathy argument
    You don't need to sympathize with him and I don't think the story asks you to.
    You could empathize though.

  15. #33175
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    A possible new interpretation for the sudden decline on the Matou succession line is Barbatos finally getting sick of Zouken's bullshit.

  16. #33176
    Not sure how i feel about that, i dont agree with the angles above but I would argue that with that angle that would partially take away from zouken if we use said above interpretation.

    tbh now that i think about it zouken killing/eating the mothers is kinda self sabotaging if he just plans to take over the new generations, as from a crude perpsective a mother can have more than one child, thus more chances without attracting any attention.

    To say something else

    Culling and maybe mystery are things that facn only be inferred then observed outside of events like fgo if you think about it.

    Of course i think there is a good argument to make that mystery is either vastly overstated or doesnt exist just based on casual observation of things like fgo part 2 not seeming to effect any magic used by chaldea for example
    Last edited by Byegod; November 26th, 2021 at 09:00 PM.

  17. #33177
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    Do we know if he was the one who came up with the idea? Maybe it was one of his predecessors

    Hell, maybe kid Zouken had his share of worm time too

    Just sayin
    Young Zouken created the Crest Worms, so probably he didn't have worm time.
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  18. #33178
    I mean that means he was fine with rape and bestiality even with his "ideal"

    considering even rin was sickened if memory serves as she noted there is no point for that

    I'm gonna make a statement that some may hate, but if i had to guess nasu had the conception of some parts of zoukens lore at a different point than other parts and there wasnt a attempt at meshing or changing the parts so they work.

    But to change topics yet again, you know how we often say the writing/Nps/whatever are limited by fgo being a gacha, I think that is partially true but I would also note that the materials dont exactly seem to help when you get shit like parvati's NP never being explained or skills that dont explain themselves and so on.

    It says to me there is also a lack of trying/imagination on the authors part

  19. #33179
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    I'm gonna make a statement that some may hate, but if i had to guess nasu had the conception of some parts of zoukens lore at a different point than other parts and there wasnt a attempt at meshing or changing the parts so they work.
    The parts are clearly supposed to clash though so why would you assume that was not planned? Regardless of whether or not you think the end result worked out, the "sides" of Zouken are supposed to be polar opposites.

  20. #33180
    I guess I was imagining the part of zoukens backstory being more defined later vs the worm lore is what I meant

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