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Thread: The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

  1. #30381
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    reminder

    Quote Originally Posted by Journal of Medieval and Early Modern Studies 33.1 (2003) 125-141
    [John] Dee's work over the course of several years on behalf of Queen Elizabeth is the prime English example of historically based claims to the New World. Dee, an acclaimed scientist and mathematician who was closely involved with early English voyages to America led by Humphrey Gilbert and Martin Frobisher, 8 wrote several texts largely dedicated to proving that England had a better claim to much of America than other European nations because British subjects had "discovered, and inhabited in divers maners" various portions of the New World before Columbus or Vespucci ever sailed. 9 These tracts were compiled in a small manuscript volume titled Brytanici Imperii Limites, dated 1576. 10 Dee met with the queen, and later her treasurer Lord Burghley, three times from 1577 to 1580 to make the case that King Arthur, King Malgo, the Welsh Prince Madoc, St. Brendan the Navigator, an Oxford friar, and the Scottish Prince Icarus had all trafficked in the New World long before the fifteenth century. 11 The adventures of these medieval British explorers and settlers are now—and were often then—recognized as fictions. Dee nevertheless presented these narratives as legal proofs of English sovereignty over America, in accordance with the standard procedure of making property claims based on historical precedents. 12 Although Elizabeth heard Dee out with some enthusiasm, she never took any action on the basis of his recommendations.

    Dee, of course, maintained that his narratives were historical, but his contemporary Edmund Spenser insisted on classifying such stories as fiction. According to Dee, in the sixth century King Arthur established holdings not only in Iceland and Greenland, but in the northern New World lands that speculatively filled sixteenth-century maps: Grocland, Friseland, Estotiland, and Icaria. This claim has a poetic doppelganger in Book 2 of The Faerie Queene. The Faery knight Guyon, reading a volume called Antiquitie of Faerie lond, learns that the first of the Faery kings, who "to them selues all Nations did subdew: / . . . / Was Elfin; him all Indiaobayd, / And all that now Americamen call." 13 Elfin, ancient conqueror of America, suggests Dee's Arthur in several ways. Elfin's descendents Elficleos, Oberon, and Tanaquill clearly figure the Tudors, Henry VII, Henry VIII, and Elizabeth, who were thought to descend from Arthur's royal line, as Spenser mentions at the beginning of the canto (2.10.4). 14 Elfin's rule over America predates Elficleos/Henry VII by many generations, just as Arthur's New World settlement preempted the discovery of America (which occurred during Henry VII's reign) by centuries.
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  2. #30382
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Zork Knight's Avatar
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    So that's how the potatoes made it to Arthurian Britain

    Also has anyone ever thought that Drake might be referencing Faris from FFV

  3. #30383
    Beats By Matthew ft. Dr. Para Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    in TM Epstein's island is probably a magus workshop
    Wouldn't it just be a Catholic school?
    Supports:


    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  4. #30384
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    Just throwing this out there: what if the Age of Man is actually a "false" reality? By this, I mean that its Texture ("historical" reality as opposed to "mythological" one; the world defined by physical laws) is an anomaly, something that shouldn't naturally occur on Earth.
    When compared to preceding epoch the Age of Man seems to be weaker in almost every regard.

    A) Chronologically the Age of Gods lasted at least since Jurassic Era to 11 000 BC. Compared to that the Age of Man is only four-five millennia-long, and half of it is made by various transitional periods such as time of Divine Spirits, Age of Legends, Age of Faeries, etc.

    B) Geographically-wise the Age of Man seems to be limited by Earth's surface. The mythological reality exists under as well as above (Cosmos) it. And even on the ground level, its grip isn't 100%: the supernatural phenomena still persist on the fringes of human society even at the beginning of the XXIst century.

    C) Durability-wise the Age of Man seems to be relatively fragile. It has certain weak spots geographically and is dependent on certain artifacts that pin its Texture to the Earth. And peeling it away is very much within the realms of possibility. By contrast, the Age of Gods seemingly had no need for such pillars and was only overturned by an alien invasion of apocalyptic proportions.

    D) Another sign of low durability might be Alaya's trigger-happy behavior when it comes to pruning the timelines. The selection of examples is limited but it seems like Gaia cuts of the worlds on the verge of physical annihilation while Alaya would destroy your timeline just for society evolving into "improper" direction.

    E) The Age of Gods also beats the Age of Man when it comes to the range of possibilities. For example, "true resurrection" is something which is beyond even the scope of Five Magics of the Modern era but it did happen in the Age of Gods.

    So overall it seems like the Age of Man is pretty much inferior to the AoG. I think this question might eventually come up in the main plot of F/GO Part II. This would certainly explain why Crypters are supposedly "good guys" as they are essentially fighting for restoring the "proper" state of the world in one form or the other.
    Last edited by Blastedspider; March 26th, 2020 at 09:00 PM.

  5. #30385
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    The Crypters are portrayed as having a fair argument because they're trying to protect the Lostbelts while we destroy them in the hope that we can bring our reality back (even though we don't know how to do it or even if it's possible).

    The other Ages lasted that much longer because that's just how the real world is. Humanity is young. Nasu can't stray too far away from that and say humans have been living for 65 million years. There are remnants of the older ages because that's what makes Fate's setting interesting and different from the real world.
    In a less meta argument, the second Age of Gods was the only one that had the chance of slowly going away instead of abruptly being invaded so we can't really judge if that's normal or not.

    Also humanity isn't weak at all? Yeah we don't have super magic I guess but our self-protection has an entire system in which is cuts-off supply to timelines just to ensure our continued existence. We've been shown to survive the death of the planet. Alaya isn't trigger happy, it is rationing energy so that humanity can prosper for as long as possible.

    Also none of your points actually support the idea that the Age of Man is "fake", you're just comparing the textures.

    B) Geographically-wise the Age of Man seems to be limited by Earth's surface. The mythological reality still exists under as well as above (Cosmos).
    No it doesn't? What do you mean by this?

  6. #30386
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    The Crypters are portrayed as having a fair argument because they're trying to protect the Lostbelts while we destroy them in the hope that we can bring our reality back (even though we don't know how to do it or even if it's possible).
    That makes sense. Still I find this explanation unsatisfying. They are just failed timelines, what kind of value makes them so much superior to the history proper that the latter isn't even allowed to compete?

    Also, the hypothetical reveal of them being "legitimate" timelines would create a thematic reversal of the conflict in Part I: instead of fighting anomalies Chaldea would an anomaly itself.

    Also humanity isn't weak at all?
    I am not saying that humanity is weak; I am saying that the Age of Man is lesser than the Age of Gods as a Texture.

    No it doesn't?
    The Reverse Side of the World seems to literally exist in bowels of the Earth beyound the reach of modern man. Similarly the Cosmos is populated mostly by supernatural creatures which defy the laws of physics. Many Gods originally came from outer space, so presumably it is their natural habitat.
    Last edited by Blastedspider; March 26th, 2020 at 09:56 PM.

  7. #30387
    Surpass her level, if you dare. hayate's Avatar
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    Turning Ritsuka's reality into a blank slate...

    Turns out the earth is stripped too cleanly. Just look at the design of the surface of the planet.

    And those shapes when the surface is wiped out. Someone induced a Lostbelt situation on their world.

    Can't say it's the Alien God or the Priestess though.

    Why do they want the Fantasy Trees to disappear if they planted it in the first place?

    Unless it was not them that planted it.
    Not dealing with it...

    Why even try?


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  8. #30388
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blastedspider View Post
    That makes sense. Still I find this explanation unsatisfying. They are just failed timelines, what kind of value makes them so much superior to the history proper that the latter isn't even allowed to compete?
    They aren't superior to proper human history. It isn't competing because the Alien God wiped it off the Earth. The Losbelts survive because of the Alien's power, not their own.

    Also, the hypothetical reveal of them being "legitimate" timelines would create a thematic reversal of the conflict in Part I: instead of fighting anomalies Chaldea would an anomaly itself.
    The reversal already exists in Chaldea having to destroy futures and kill innocents instead of just restoring our own while saving humanity.

    I am not saying thar humanity is weak; I am saying that the Age of Man is lesser than the Age of Gods as a Texture.
    I don't see it. Yeah, it's true that individuals were more powerful before, but humans are the prime ones now. If gods were superior they'd still be the prime ones, but they declined and humanity prospered.

    The Reverse Side of the World seems to literally exist in bowels of Earth beyound the reach of modern man. Similarly the Cosmos is populated mostly by supernatural creatures which defy the laws of physics. Many Gods originally came from outer space, so presumably it is their natural habitat.
    I don't think you should assume the Reverse Side of the World is physically in the center of the Earth. The connection to it became less and less possible as the Age of Man got stronger, just look at poor Albion. It's the same thing as the underworld of Mesopotamia not being literally hell anymore.
    The alien gods come from their own planets/stars/whatever with its own textures, it's not like they had any relation to our own Age of Gods before getting here. Our texture seems to extend to just the Solar System.

  9. #30389
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    I'd argue that if Lostbelt timelines do not have some intrinsic value the Crypters cannot be seen as good guys. Without a justification of some kind they are just traitors who willingly collaborated with an alien conqueror (or victims forced into obedience at best). But the narrative doesn't portray them as such (Gordolfs attempt to accuse Ophelia was clearly in the wrong, for example) so I think there must be more to their case. Not necessary the issue of timeline legitimacy, of course, but it seems like serviceable reason more or less.

    If gods were superior they'd still be the prime ones, but they declined and humanity prospered
    Well, the thing is... Mankind only managed to establish its supremacy because Velber trashed the civilization of Gods. Also humans can live in Age of Gods texture just fine: look at Krishtaria's Lostbelt for example. Because of that you could even argue that AoG Texture already contains all possibilities existing in AoM Texture. The reverse isn't true.

    I don't think you should assume the Reverse Side of the World is physically in the center of the Earth
    The "inner sea of the planet" was mentioned since the days of Melty Blood. Also it was revealed in Case Files that Clock Tower is built upom the corpse of a Dragon which tried to dig into the Reverse Side but didn't make it.

    And its not just the Gods. Pretty much everything which comes from space - from Types to Velbers is a some sort of physics-defying (i.e. not compatible with Age of Man Texture) supernatural monstrosity.
    Last edited by Blastedspider; March 26th, 2020 at 10:40 PM.

  10. #30390
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    Pretty sure theres the whole modern humans burn up in AoG from the ether without special equipment thing

    And the Case files dragon was trying to escape the human texture underground cuz the same way the human texture only extends to the reaches of the solar system, it didnt fully extend underground, so the dragon began to dig. He just didnt make it in time before humans discovered geology and debunked "hollow world theory"

  11. #30391
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blastedspider View Post
    I'd argue that if Lostbelt timelines do not have some intrinsic value the Crypters cannot be seen as good guys. Without a justification of some kind they are just traitors who willingly collaborated with an alien conqueror (or victims forced into obedience at best). But the narrative doesn't portray them as such (Gordolfs attempt to accuse Ophelia was clearly in the wrong, for example) so I think there must be more to their case. Not necessary the issue of timeline legitimacy, of course, but it seems like serviceable reason more or less.
    Well I don't agree the narrative portrays them as good guys. Each of them have their own justification for doing what they're doing, none of them (from the chapters I read) are doing it because they believe this random reality that was assigned to them to be legitimate. Kirsch clearly has an agenda separate from the Alien God, Kadoc had Anastasia and his own insecurities, Hinako was secretly a chinese vampire who doesn't care about humanity and just wanted her husband back, etc.

    Well, the thing is... Mankind only managed to establish its supremacy because Velber trashed the civilization of Gods. Also humans can live in Age of Gods texture just fine: look at Krishtaria's Lostbelt for example. Because of that you could even argue that AoG Texture already contains all possibilities existing in AoM Texture. The reverse isn't true.
    It doesn't contain the possibilities in which humanity prospers beyond their subservience and need of the Gods, which is the whole point of AoM.

    The "inner sea of the planet" was mentioned since the days of Melty Blood. Also it was revealed in Case Files that Clock Tower is built upom the corpse of a Dragon which tried to dig into the Reverse Side but didn't make it.
    Yes, I talked about him. He failed because he was too late, as madarra explained.

    And its not just the Gods. Pretty much everything which comes from space - from Types to Velbers is a some sort of physics-defying (i.e. not compatible with Age of Man Texture) supernatural monstrosity.
    Well yeah, they're coming from their weird alien texture or from outside of reality. I don't see how alien beings not being compatible with the Age of Man supports your argument.

  12. #30392
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    Pretty sure theres the whole modern humans burn up in AoG from the ether without special equipment thing
    That's a fair point. Still I'd say that this difference doesn't change anything in this context. AoG people are are still Men; otherwise the transition would never happened.

    As for the Dragon - I can't find the relevant fragment from the novels, so basing my position on You's summary.

    The dragon was a dumbshit and decided to stay and not go to fairyland. Eventually figured out it was dumb and tried to physically get to fairyland by digging. Which is possible because the rules of the human texture gets weaker and weaker the more you dig but the dragon died before it got there.
    Well I don't agree the narrative portrays them as good guys
    Individually, yes. But as a group their cause is supposed to be "just" ("good" probably was a poor choice of a word). At least this is my impression.

    doesn't contain the possibilities in which humanity prospers beyond their subservience and need of the Gods, which is the whole point of AoM.
    True but that's not what I mean. AoG Texture allows everything possible under physical laws which define the Age of Man and more. In other words, Gods can do everything humans can but humans can't do everything Gods did.

    I don't see how alien beings not being compatible with the Age of Man supports your argument
    Well it seems like they are compatible with Age of Gods (especially in light of Alien God and his strategy). I am probably stretching this but doesn't this imply that AoG is the default state for the universe?
    Last edited by Blastedspider; March 26th, 2020 at 11:45 PM.

  13. #30393
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    AoM is constructed acausally. It is an instrument by which something else (which exists in the future) brings itself into existence retroactively. This is the only way to make sense of the pruning phenomenon: that there is a particular end at which AoM is aiming (n.b. choice implies intention, implies will, implies agency), and any path which will fall short of getting to it is destroyed
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  14. #30394
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Hard to have a just cause when it's only happening because a ROB just popped in and saved Kirsch intending to have only one timeline, and the others only surviving because Kirsch wanted them to also get the chance he got. It's like a bunch of strangers walked into your house, threw out all the decorations for their own for unknown reasons. How is that just in anyway?

    And where is it implied that the AoG is the default state? And what do you mean by the default state for the universe?

  15. #30395
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    N.B. it is by no means likely that the thing which exists in the future (and constructs itself from out of the ruin of the AoG: AoM is this process of construction) is in any way recognisably human. What is called 'human' in the 'present day' is barely even a work in progress
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  16. #30396
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    It feels like this whole discussion is forgetting preserving the Lostbelts is only half of a Crypter's job. Kirschtaria's stated goal is to replace Pan-Human History with a better history where the Age of Gods never ended and humanity knows how to effectively use the gods as tools. So he put every Crypter into a Lostbelt and gave them 2 tasks. To use their tree to make the Lostbelt stable and to solve the Lostbelt so it won't become a pruning target again.

    A Lostbelt is defined as a history that reached a stalemate. The Russian Lostbelt is stuck under Ivan's rule since the Yaga creating event and Kadoc fully believes he can solve it and save that world by replacing Ivan with Anastaisa as the Tsar (whether he's right or not is a separate topic). The Norse Lostbelt has Skadi actively inforcing the stalemate to prevent an extinction event until either she or Ophelia can come up with a good idea to get rid of Surtr. The Chinese Lostbelt has an immortal Qin Shi Huang who eliminated all potential challenges to his eternal unchanging world. The Indian Lostbelt can't go anywhere because it resets itself before progress can be done.

    There's indeed not any value in just bringing back impracticable timelines, but that's not what's happening here. Hinako and maybe the last 2 Crypters aside, all of them are working to get rid of this stalemate and make their Lostbelts viable again.

  17. #30397
    I think that's shown pretty well in Yuga Kshetra actually. Once Arjuna is dealt with there is nothing actually wrong with that world anymore, but Chaldea still has to destroy it anyway.

  18. #30398
    Professional Anarchist Kamerad's Avatar
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    does that mean if this neolib end of history hellhole we're living in does not end soon, [this] timeline will get pruned?

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six asterism42's Avatar
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    You can tell Guda has been out of it since 2015 since if they knew what the world was like they'd definitely decide to settle in one of the Lostbelts
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  20. #30400
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinetree View Post
    It doesn't contain the possibilities in which humanity prospers beyond their subservience and need of the Gods, which is the whole point of AoM.
    I'd like to point out that Kirsch said that the gods and humans misunderstood the true purpose of gods, in that gods are part of a system to be utilized by humans to prosper. But on one side you have the gods trying to control humans, and the other side rejected the idea, and this was the cause of separation between humans and gods which led to the collapse of the AoG. Basically his aim is to find a possibility where humans can use the gods as what should've been done.

    Whether he is right or not is unknown, but if he is right, then the AoM was created due to a misunderstanding from both humans and gods.


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