The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[Kamera]

Man I should probably read that, huh.

Yeah, Narita is less subtle with things like these.

[Best Girl]

Anyway, to get back on track. There's some kind of implication that True Ancestors are 霊長 (Primals), or at least exist in a position where they can contend for the seat of it.

I'm actually unsure if it's wise enough to read into it, but it's an interesting prospect, and it sort of squares with the purpose as to why Gaia created them in the first place (人を諫める - Punish humans).
In addition, Roa seems to not consider DA to be 霊長 (Primals) and there are a few possibilities here:

1. They're "sort of analogous enough" that the Church considers them 霊長 (Primals) enough that they'd threaten humans (not wrong) but at the same time Roa has this "further" postulate that no matter how hard DA try, they can't reach 霊長の座 (the Primal Seat).

2. DA are not 霊長 (Primals) and Arcueid is only talking about herself when she explains the Burial Agency's motives. Roa is totally right, like always. At the same time, this means True Ancestors almost by necessity have to be 霊長 (Primals), or at least contending for its seat.

And excuse the inconsistent translations I just can't be arsed anymore. I will not call them apes ever again.

I think you are lumping DA and True Ancestors.

Roa is essentially lamenting that DA are a cast-aside byproduct of the True Ancestors. They are flawed and cannot propagate.
True Ancestors are a complete product, barring the bloodlust flaw.

Altrouge is proof that True Ancestors can breed. I guess that makes them in contention for "Primate" per Roa's rules.

[Comun]

Fake

Thia doesn’t really have any TA traits, at least not as far as I’m seeing. All his tricks are explicitly based on magecraft rather than Marble Phantasms.

[Petrikow]

Just for good measure, I actually had a discussion with some people about the usage of 霊長類 in terms of Notes, and its harder to tell how much of the "supreme beings" part of it was conceptualized at the time. I think it's mostly in good order to keep a lot about Notes at arms length when applying it the overall Nasuverse anyway (because Nasu seems to wanna keep changing it every time he brings it up), but at the same time its interesting to think that maybe the conception of this idea came from the struggle between 亜麗百種 (A-RAYs) and 人間種 (Liners).

Given how A-RAYs are literal bio-engineered neo-humans it actually makes more sense to apply the scientific definition here in a lot of ways, but maybe his description of 次世代の霊長類 (New Generation 'Primates') here is what later caused him to re-examine the concept for Tsukihime, or something.

[Nanaya]

In the OG maybe, but with RE, the point is diluted with the introduction of Idea Blood and Principle.

Tsukire

How? Isn't the implication that Roa is the one who devises the technique to plunder their special gifts that would otherwise vanish?

Woops, thank Petri.

[Kamera]

True Ancestors can breed.

Shiki and Arc having children confirmed?

[Nanaya]

Shiki and Arc having children confirmed?

Is this the thread Comun? Can we start the convo?

[Ideofago]

Is this the thread Comun? Can we start the convo?

I don't know what you're talking about but it sounds very interesting so please elaborate

[Comun]

Is this the thread Comun? Can we start the convo?

Yes. Go nuts.

[Nanaya]

I don't know what you're talking about but it sounds very interesting so please elaborate

Spoiler:

They probably can. Though I'm not sure Altrouge is a good example since she's some TA/DA hybrid experiment by the CM when he was trying to create a vessel. How does that work.

[Ideofago]

what the actual fuck

[Best Girl]

Shiki and Arc having children confirmed?

Not sure.

DA are fundamentally different from humans, since the TA blood changes you on a genetic level.

TA breeding with DA kinda makes sense, since DA are just pseudo-TA. TA breeding with a human would be interesting. I guess it would work if TA blood just overwrites everything.

- - - Updated - - -

Spoiler:

They probably can. Though I'm not sure Altrouge is a good example since she's some TA/DA hybrid experiment by the CM when he was trying to create a vessel. How does that work.

You are phrasing it too scientifically, you might confuse people.

Based on my Japanese skills, "真祖と死徒の混血" involves fucking.

[Petrikow]

Spoiler:

In the OG maybe, but with RE, the point is diluted with the introduction of Idea Blood and Principle.

Tsukire

How? Isn't the implication that Roa is the one who devises the technique to plunder their special gifts that would otherwise vanish?

First of all I should probably get some spoilers up in here, which is partially my bad for posting unspoilered quotes (even if in Japanese).

TsukiRE

That said; you've just touched upon quite an interesting peculiarity of TsukiRE that we had a fair amount of arguing about back when it came out.

Idea Blood can be inherited (as per Arcueid's explanation)
Principles cannot be inherited (as per Roa's explanation)
Idea Bloods are Principles (as per Mario's explanation)

The expiation we settled for to explain this discrepancy is that Idea Blood are a "type of Principle", but they're not the same as the general kind.
For example, we know from MBTL that Arcueid has "The Principle of Focality" (極点の原理), which is the source of her powers.
Another example: DA Noel has the Principle of 望郷の鐘 (the Bells of Nostalgia) inherently, even if Arach's injection has given her some other powers (those of Rita and Paranodahlia?).
In addition, Roa has a Principle, as explained in Mario's scene (the implication that Mario drops is that his Principle is his Reincarnation, by the way!) but not Idea Blood.
So basically, we engaged with the thought that Idea Blood is some kind of "external" Principle, that can be applied to people with "normal" Principles to give them make those Principles fucking crazy and make the world break.

The thing Roa developed is most likely a technique to take someone's Principle (the generic kind) THROUGH their Idea Blood.
Normally, the succession of Idea Blood enhances the latent Principle, but in this case...
Ciel shows us the technique, hence why he says "Will I come in possession of a body strong enough to bear such dues?" after he develops it.
Ciel can defeat Ancestors, take their Idea Blood and through this, preserve their Principle. In addition, she can convert them into 大魔術 (Rituals) to use as "consumable spells". The oft comparison is that of Dark Souls boss souls...

[Nanaya]

Spoiler:

How does a race that's not supposed to be able to breed... well, breed? I mean you can become a DA just through magic shit right?

[Best Girl]

Spoiler:

How does a race that's not supposed to be able to breed... well, breed? I mean you can become a DA just through magic shit right?

I guess the implicit idea is that the rules are for those of the Crimson Moon and TA lineage.

[Petrikow]

TsukiRE

There's an implication when Arc talks about Successors (the vampire Rank) that Altrought might just have been "created with attributes similar to mine", if you interpret her here as talking about Altrouge (goes unnamed, of course)

Think of what 混血 could imply. Sure, interbreeding is the lexicon way of reading it, but sneaky little Nasu might have meant "the mixing of DA and TA blood" quite literally. As in they took some TA Blood and stuffed it in a DA.

[peanuts]

The thing about humans and True Apostles having children is from this btw
福外鬼内 |> 月姫の吸血鬼（真祖と死徒）って人間と子供作れるんですか？＜きのこさん (2/17(土)1:28)
ほんきのこ > 福外鬼内 さん＞今のところ、成功例はただ一人みたいです。 (2/17(土)1:29)

http://ranbukai.sakura.ne.jp/tsukihime_zadankai2.htm

Sounds like the success rate is p bad.

[Kamera]

TsukiRE

There's an implication when Arc talks about Successors (the vampire Rank) that Altrought might just have been "created with attributes similar to mine", if you interpret her here as talking about Altrouge (goes unnamed, of course)

Think of what 混血 could imply. Sure, interbreeding is the lexicon way of reading it, but sneaky little Nasu might have meant "the mixing of DA and TA blood" quite literally. As in they took some TA Blood and stuffed it in a DA.

But that's not how babies are made!

[Petrikow]

By gawd, the fucking message boards coming in handy.

[Best Girl]

The thing about humans and True Apostles having children is from this btw
福外鬼内 |> 月姫の吸血鬼（真祖と死徒）って人間と子供作れるんですか？＜きのこさん (2/17(土)1:28)
ほんきのこ > 福外鬼内 さん＞今のところ、成功例はただ一人みたいです。 (2/17(土)1:29)

http://ranbukai.sakura.ne.jp/tsukihime_zadankai2.htm

Sounds like the success rate is p bad.

>Pretty bad

It is literally one lol.
Altrouge confirmed?