"I Am Vengeance. I AM THE K/NIGHT." - GODD*MN BATMAN THREAD

[LegalLoliLover]

that's not a parody.

Which is kinda hilarious because it does to the Batman series everything I wanted to happen to the series. Batman has minimal presence. Villains solve their own problems. I consider it less a parody and more what Interview with Kaziklu Bey is to Dies Irae.

[SpoonyViking]

He didn't have one until 1988 with Alan Moore, and even then it wasn't clear whether that was his actual origin or he was just imagining shit up. Even so, at the end of the book Batman makes the point his bad luck doesn't excuse all the shit he's done, as a comparable bad experience didn't break Gordon (and Batman's turned him to help people rather than hurting them). So even in that context the sad backstory isn't mean to make excuses for him.

Related to the above, I'd say the reader is absolutely expected to sympathise with the Joker even as they're also expected to not accept this as an excuse for his crimes. Anecdotally, I'd say too often modern media forgets to make a distinction between both: either it goes for the clichéd "sympathetic backstory automatically earns forgiveness" trope or the just-as-cheap "there can be no empathy for the villain, ever!" trope.

[OverMaster]

Related to the above, I'd say the reader is absolutely expected to sympathise with the Joker even as they're also expected to not accept this as an excuse for his crimes.

Yeah, this is basically true of most Batman villains too, especially in the Dini/Timm series, which was very good at it. They're broken people but at the same time they also bring further damage upon themselves and others by reacting to their circumstances the way they do.

This is what bothers me from the current takes on Harley Quinn versus the classic version. The later was pitiable but after a point she also was bringing things on herself, and she was trapped in this vicious circle that was, let's admit it, in no small part her own doing. The former just gets a pass for everything, if not in the short run then in the long, just because she's the star of her own franchise now, no matter how reckless, toxic or downright dangerous to others she may be at the time.

[LegalLoliLover]

just because she's the star of her own franchise now, no matter how reckless, toxic or downright dangerous to others she may be at the time.

Not quite sure if a spin-off counts as a franchise, though. That being said: So there's this albino vampire who used to be an officer of the Third Reich...

[OverMaster]

Not quite sure if a spin-off counts as a franchise, though.

Dude, you don't follow the comics, do you? Harley has pretty much her own line of funnybooks right now. Hell, just to go along with the HARLEY QUINN and the Birds of Prey movie, they released THREE different comics projects teaming Harley and the Birds up.

That's without going into the movie itself, the animated series you already mentioned, her ongoing role in the Suicide Squad franchise (books and films) and how she cameos in other characters' books now as if these were the nineties and she were Wolverine.

[LegalLoliLover]

Related to the above, I'd say the reader is absolutely expected to sympathise with the Joker even as they're also expected to not accept this as an excuse for his crimes. Anecdotally, I'd say too often modern media forgets to make a distinction between both: either it goes for the clichéd "sympathetic backstory automatically earns forgiveness" trope or the just-as-cheap "there can be no empathy for the villain, ever!" trope.

Maybe not for Batman villains, but Star Wars does a pretty good job of that with Vader.

how she cameos in other characters' books now as if these were the nineties and she were Wolverine.

You're right. I don't keep up with the comics. That being said, that situation does remind me of Deadpool's.

[OverMaster]

Maybe not for Batman villains, but Star Wars does a pretty good job of that with Vader.

Spider-Man villains have a mostly good record at that too. Leaving the comics aside, recently both the Vulture in Homecoming and Kingpin from Into the Spiderverse got fairly reasonable motivations while also stressing they had to pay for their actions.

True, there's Mysterio in Far from Home, but being fair Mysterio's deal has always been he's just a narcissistic douchebag. And that's okay, rogues gallery need those as well to go with the more sympathetic ones.

[Mattias]

Spider-Man villains have a mostly good record at that too. Leaving the comics aside, recently both the Vulture in Homecoming and Kingpin from Into the Spiderverse got fairly reasonable motivations while also stressing they had to pay for their actions.

I don't know about the Kingpin from Spiderverse. Sure he wants to bring back his family from a reality where they didn't die, but he's also super short sighted about it. What if he succeeded, but then the Kingpin of that reality found out and went after him? It's better for him that he failed, because while Miles wouldn't kill him, Kingpin would definitely kill his kidnapping alternate reality counterpart. Should have invested in time travel instead of alternate dimensions, and Dr Who the pair out moments before the accident.

[LegalLoliLover]

I laugh at people thinking Batman is too cruel. He's too kind, especially when compared to the great Lord Nobunaga Oda:

[RoydGolden]

The funny thing about "Batman is a fascist beating up poors" rhetoric is that Batman villains actually tend to skew upper-class in a way many other superhero comics don't. And yeah, like some of the comments said Batman actually does canonically do all sorts of normal philanthropy work trying to improve Gotham behind the scenes, it's just the institutions are so corrupt he's continually pushed back against so the city more-or-less remains stuck in status-quo. And we don't see that side as often because... well, it's not as fun as seeing a guy dressed as a bat punch criminals.

[Mattias]

I remember seeing one page from a Batman comic where he's surrounded by a ton of goons, at what looks like a high class villain party. Then Bruce Wayne comes on the big screen and offers any goons who want to take it full employment and training at Wayne Ent. with full benefits. It ended something like "why fight Batman every week and have to pay off the books doctors bills, when I can get you free comprehensive health care and a job that's not illegal?" and the last panel is just everyone throwing down their bats/knifes/clubs and walking out.

[LegalLoliLover]

The real Batman who Laughs: