Prisma Illya

[bassgs435]

I don't think Hiro's trying to prove anything. He's a legit nasuverse fan, and I think he wanted to take the story in this direction because the he likes the dark chuuni parts of Fate and wanted to write something like that. How well it works is up to each individual. But I don't see Hiroyama as trying to prove anything or insecure of the loli fanservice and light hearted start of the story
I mean, if he was trying to remove that stigma or something, would he have made the final ascensions he did for Illya and Kuro?

[TheSeaDragon]

Maybe you are right. I will not argue he is passionate fan , but it can give this impression, specially with this choice. If it does not stick...was it neccesary ? And if it sticks ....i will also wonder if it was neccesary .

[TheSkipRow]

I highly doubt it will stick. I'd be surprised and even impressed if he has the balls to leave it be though.

As for him, I figure he didn't expect people to care when Kaleid started serialization, but at some point he realized there's a significant fanbase and he can do some wild things with the story besides regular Magical Girl stuff.

Personally I'm not in either camp here. I liked the first season/manga of Prillya, but I don't see how it could've kept going like that and not gotten stale at some point. I'm actually surprised to see people actually bothered by 3rei being... 3rei I guess.

Then again, Kuro is the only reason I actually liked Prillya. Illya is not the tiny murder machine I loved from FSN, and Miyu is that character archetype I don't really like on their own.

[OverMaster]

Those are all examples of someone trying to kill off their characters and then continue writing (or being stuck continuing writing after the fact, I guess), but my point was that if Hiroyama already planned for 3rei to be the end of Prillya then would it really matter if it ends after one of the major characters having died?

Because I would think not.

It would matter for a future animated adaptation.

Killing a major audience hook and then making her fans anticipate having the same experience all over again? That's probably not going to warm them up to that installement.

Especially after Prisma Carnival OVA, which hasn't made the anime any favors either.

[fumei]

Maybe this is true and maybe there's stats to support this, but really all I'm thinking reading all of this is "wow anime fans are kinda pussies"

[OverMaster]

I mean.

Build empathy for a character over years and it's reasonable there will be an emotional blow of sorts when that character is killed off. That's not being 'a pussy' as long as it doesn't go to extremes, that's just having emotional empathy for a personality you liked.

Now, if you start sending death threats over that then you're just a psycho manchild, but if you're just left with a "Well, yeah, you know, after this, I kinda don't want to see that again, but with Saito Chiwa saying her last words" sensation then I can't blame you if you don't want to spend your time and your Blu-Ray buying money on that. The execs interested on that money might feel otherwise though.

[fumei]

I understand having a connection with a character, I've felt that countless times nearing a series finale and whatnot, but I just can't relate to the whole prospective of my favorite character, or even just a character I like, getting killed off resulting in me not continuing to purchase stuff related to the show (did I really enjoy the show if so, and wasn't just watching for that one character), and subsequently refusing to consume the same thing I already consumed once because that death would be SO devastating, and for the same reason boycotting any adaptation because I just couldn't bear knowing that one character I like will die.

Like, okay, I get the emotional connection, but it just all seems a bit over the top. Then again, I do know about all the death threat stuff and the absolute riots and stuff that "fans" pull so I guess I wouldn't put it past them, I just can't think that this is how the average fan will react, really.

[bassgs435]

I mean, Danganronpa characters are really popular, and a common criticism of 3 was it's reluctance to kill anyone who wasn't a new character and showing the entire cast of 2 saved. JoJo has a lot of emotional deaths and manga fans don't stop supporting the anime or the manga when those deaths stick. Same with Kimetsu no Yaiba. The deaths and them sticking isn't stopping the movie from making 10 billion yen faster than Spirited Away, the previous film to be the fastest to make that much money in Japan, and a lot of that are manga readers who know of the deaths since the manga itself also sold like crazy, so it wouldn't be so successful if manga readers didn't want to watch the anime

[OverMaster]

Well, from a personal perspective, and speaking as someone who has to live on a tight budget, I literally can't allow myself to go out of my way to blow money on a franchise that isn't really batting on all cylinders for me.

A buyer doesn't owe the franchise makers anything or any loyalty, really, if I was let down by your project to any degree then it's my right not keeping buying it anymore. It'd be petty and stupid for me to insult you over it but I don't have to keep following you anymore either.

Danganronpa isn't the most honest example to bring up here because the whole point of the franchise to begin with is that the characters are put in a death game.

Same, to some degree, with standard Fate stories, the kind with Servants killing each other over a Grail, which also have basically 'Only one can be left standing' premises. That's fair and it's silly to complain about characters dying there when that's the whole point. Prillya was not a typical Fate story though.

[bassgs435]

See, then fumei is right and the death isn't the problem. You were implying most people stop supporting franchises over a character death in general, and that's what I and fumei argued against. Now the death meaning a dissapointing switch in what kind of story it is, or not fitting with why you read the story is a different thing and it is indeed fair to stop supporting a franchise if you don't like where it's going. But that's different from deaths making people stop supporting franchises in general.

[OverMaster]

Well, it varies on the type of story.

A story based around a death contest, like Danganronpa or an average Fate war, has the character deaths as such an intrinsic part that characters dying IS the point, and it IS disappointing if they don't die at all.

The average hero's journey, however, is a different kind of animal and it is about the hero succeeding, which... generally implies not dying and, to the best of the hero's capacity, keeping their loved ones from dying either. Subversions can be performed if done correctly, but overall the hero is supposed to be successful at these goals, lest they be a Failure Hero, which presumably is not the case to be expected when a story lasts years of buildup and investment, and let's not kid ourselves, Prillya is not the kind of experimental work where an 'And then, after years of comedy shenanigans and adventure, everyone or almost everyone died screaming. Now buy our anime!' can really be expected to work with its target audience. It also adds an extra wrinkle when the characters involved are minors, because the death of a minor will always be more uncomfortable to experience than that of an adult.

[bassgs435]

JoJo part 5 has minors dying. Same with Devilman and Cutie Honey. JoJo part 3 was a literal hero's journey to go to DIO and save Holly and people died in there, one of them a minor. Jonathan himself died at the end of PB.
I agree Prisma isn't one of those stories and a permanent death for Kuro doesn't fit. But I still disagree with your overall generalizations and the idea that the average hero's journey can't have deaths or deaths of minors

[OverMaster]

... Devilman is a horror story, it also falls under the 'supposed to be dark, gritty and full of death' umbrella.

I haven't ever touched anything Jojo so I won't comment on that. The only Cutie Honey I have watched is the Re OVAs by Gainax, which had no minors whatsoever dying, but... aren't all series alternate realities to each other anyway? Whoever dies in any one won't translate to the others either way, that's different from doing an exact adaptation and hoping to cash in on it.

[SheriTansorma]

Column A and Column B.

Character deaths do turn people away from a franchise. For a lot of people, investment in a series is primarily motivated by a single character, because they love them so much, and if that character isn't around anymore then investment drops. If you're not that way, good for you, but other people being different from you doesn't make them pussies. For some people, major character death is just outright unpleasant and you know what? Its totally fine for people to decide that they aren't interested in willingly subjecting themselves to an unpleasant experience.

Character deaths or other major "serious" event also mark a turning point in the story, a change of direction. It doesn't matter how well done a direction change is done, for a lot of people, its a checking off point because the series just becomes something they didn't want it to be nor were they interested in. When a series strays so far from what drew people in to begin with, such as being a happy story that gets progressively more grim as time goes on, then yeah, people are gonna check out.


People issues with this chapter are very much a column A and Column B scenario. Kuro is a major, major character to a lot of people. For a lot of people, Kuro is what makes Prillya what it is. She was their driving factor for getting into the series, she was a joy to read, and they loved her beyond compare. Kuro felt like F/SN Illya finally got her good end. On top of that, *if* this sticks, then this is very much marking a turning point in the direction of the series was already seemingly going that they already had reservations about. A lot of people loved Prillya because it was such genuinely compelling, but honest to goodness Mahou Shoujo, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with unbridled optimism that saves the day and wins in the end. There's nothing wrong with perfect happy endings and I'm saying this as someone who's favorite Type-Moon works are KnK5 and Fate/Extra.

And I vehemently disagree with the notion that sticking to a more optimistic majou shoujo style story would have gotten stale. Grim-dark is not inherently more interesting than optimism, and also, like... Turning into an Ideals are Flawed, Saving Everyone Is Impossible Sad Muh Feels tear fest *isn't* stale? In *this* franchise?

Prillya started out as something truly special, a really positive optimistic fun work, that for a lot of people was very life-affirming, it had messages that resonated with people deeply. Prillya, for a lot of people, was more than just a good story. It hit on so many of the positive aspects of Type-Moon, the deep character building, the commentary on idealism, but it did it without the dread literally every other Type-Moon work has, and that made it stand out. But the longer 3rei goes on, the more and more it becomes Just Another Type-Moon Story. And it's still good! I'm sure it'll still be a solid 8/10 at worst by the end, but it lost something in that transition. Maybe some of ya'll think that's a good thing, that's fine, but for a lot of people its becoming something they just aren't interested in anymore, and its not because their salty, and its not because their pussies, and its not because their weak, or whatever have you. People mentioned Jojo and Dagen Ronpa, but its important to note that those series established the kinda story it was gonna be early on. While some character deaths are shocking, JoJo and Dangit Ron Paul are series that make it pretty obvious early on what it's gonna be. Character you like dying in those series are tragic, yes, shocking even, but it isn't something you *wouldn't* expect from the series. Prillya ain't that. Or at least, it didn't used to be.

If you like this darker direction if you still think this is the best of the best, good for you! Yay! Congratulations! What a unique and thoughtful opinion that I'm sure no one has EVER had before! Dark stories about the flaws of idealism and how the world is cruel are so so rare and hard to come by, especially in Type-Moon! With luck its next story beat is about how War Is Bad and the toxic Cycle of Revenge because we certainly don't have enough of those!/s


Sarcasm aside, if this is your cup of tea, more power to you, I respect it, but other people finding it distasteful and making it a jumping-off point for the series aren't "wrong" or just "salty". The story taking a direction that looks at Illya's Choice, one of the most important moments in the series and for a lot of people a truly, genuinely powerful moment that transcended more than just being a good story, and going "Illya was wrong" just ain't what a lot of people signed up for. That's level of cynicism just isn't what some people are interested in, period. And make no mistake, Illya looking at the trolley problem and saying "Fuck that" to the whole concept of the trolley problem, and then having the story still force that trolley to hit someone, is incredibly cynical and downright mean-spirited. I ain't saying cynicism in a story is inherently bad, I'm certainly not asking Devilman Crybaby to lighten up, but that just ain't what some people were here for. Especially when the previous parts and the thematic crux of most of the current arc were in stark opposition of that particular brand of cynicism.

I'm not gonna say the story has tanked, I'm sure Hiroyama is gonna fulfill his mandated quota of RAW KINO SWAG GOAT in the next few chapters (Which will then be immediately invalidated because the narrative keeps doing the equivalent of "This Wasn't Even My Final Form"), but this current chapter very much marks the series becoming and fully embracing something that it just wasn't before now, and losing something that made it what it was for a lot of people. So yeah, some people are definitely checking out, and they're fully in their right to do so.




If this death sticks, of course.

which like

lol

The possibility that it could, especially when 3rei has stopped feeling like Prisma Illya and more like Just Any Other Fate Work (tonally) is enough to make people check out, though.



And yes, I know I'm long-winded and bad at words, English is not my first language and I never had formal schooling, so my presentation skills are garbage.

[weeblord]

Illya said ill save miyu and the world but she didnt say ill save kuro

[SheriTansorma]

I just realized that because of Hiroyama's pacing, we won't get confirmation/closure on if this is gonna stick or not for literal years

[bassgs435]

Again, I'm not saying people are wrong for disliking a permanent death in Prisma. OverMaster however kept insisting in generalizations and broad statements about whole genres, styles of stories and audiences. I was just disagreeing with his claim of saying people will check out if characters die in general. When Honey got her whole school murdered, it was a simple revenge ecchi story about a robot girl with tranformation powers fighting the evil organization that killed her creator and dad, and that's an example where it still became a classic even after pulling the move of killing her entire school, which proves OverMaster's generalizations wrong
I wouldn't disagree at all if OverMaster dropped the generalizations and focused on this specific death

[SheriTansorma]

Fair. I was focusing on this specific death myself.

[noname14]

What is the chance of Darius pulling a "that isn't even my final form"

[SheriTansorma]

What is the chance of Darius pulling a "that isn't even my final form"

100%