Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion Thread

[Mattias]

Right? And what's more baffling is that Claremont's writing is rarely (if ever) subtle, certainly never during the Dark Phoenix arc.

I think part of the issue is that they jump straight to Dark Phoenix instead of taking the slower route.

But who has the time for all that character development? You've got to get a movie out every two years with a recognizable title so casuals will half remember it and buy tickets.

[SpoonyViking]

It turns out that having the guy that wrote an abysmal Phoenix Saga Adaptation in The Last Stand write the new Phoenix Saga movie was not a great move!

What a shocking twist!!!

Wait, they went to the exact same writer? Seriously?
That's... ...baffling, to put it mildly.

[ballinamon]

And Onslaught when? well, they would fuck it anyway.

[weeblord]

Maybe they do Onslaught when Xmen jumps over to MCU, so that they can include all the other heroes (who are still active when that hypothetical movie drops in the far future lol) since it was a crossover story in the comics too.

[ballinamon]

There are problems with MCU assimilating X-men in this stage, like the existence of mutants.

[Tobias]

Sakura stark wasn’t even that great in GoT

the hell did they think was gonna happen trying to get her to be the face of a rejuvenated franchise

[Alternative Ice]

There are problems with MCU assimilating X-men in this stage, like the existence of mutants.

Spoiler:

Didn't Endgame have some time travel world reset thing happen? That sounds like it could get mutants in.

[Mcjon01]

There are problems with MCU assimilating X-men in this stage, like the existence of mutants.

I dunno the whole “snap weakened the barriers between worlds lol” from the Homecoming trailer seems like a pretty versatile handwave

[ballinamon]

Is open a can of worms.

[Tobias]

They are just chomping at the bit to mix Deadpool in with more marvel heroes since it turns out he is a license to print money

[Sesto]

I went into Dark Phoenix expecting it to be terrible and it honestly wasn't even that bad. It was at least better than Apocalypse and some of the other shittier Marvel movies. Jean was surprisingly the best part.

That said, the antagonists were goofy as fuck. I really question the decision to go with monsters who have human appearances, it made all the action sequences with them comical. Generic CGI mooks would even have been preferable.

[aldeayeah]

Haven't seen it yet. Probably not going to see it.

But IMO, these are the core parts of the original Phoenix arc:

- Ultimately, Jean-Phoenix is just overdriven normal Jean.
- In particular, she's supposed to be very human, emotional, joyful, etc. Not just drunk with power. Definitely not a typical villain.
- There should be a visible process, a slippery slope that drives her over the edge.
- When she becomes drunk with power, she's still definitely herself (think Dark Sakura).
- Her loved ones (especially Cyclops) have face the primal fear she inspires and that provides juicy character moments.
- They also have to pick sides in the inevitable final confrontation.
- She keeps her humanity intact until the end.
- The importance of the cast is strictly proportional to how close they are to Jean, which means Cyclops/Jean > Wolverine >= Xavier > everyone else.

A straight adaptation should try to keep most of these. Considering the utter inability of the X-Men cinematic franchise at making Cyclops an interesting character*, I think I'll pass on this one.

Dark Phoenix is sort of the Heaven's Feel of X-Men continuity**. It's no wonder the movie adaptations keep failing at it. I mean, it's not something you can just shoehorn in into the usual "cinematic universe" formula. I guess it could be the payoff for years of character building, but good luck finding a studio other than Disney/Marvel with the patience to plan out that kind of thing.

* For the record, I also consider Sophie Turner as Jean Grey to be a miscast. I think she'd be an excellent Emma Frost, though.

** One could even make the following extended analogy:

Jean->Sakura (the possessed heroine)
Cyclops->Shirou (the goody-two-shoes hero and love interest who takes the side of the "evil" heroine)
Wolverine->Rin (loves the heroine and is loved back, but there's something keeping them apart, and he knows he's supposed to kill her. Xavier's role has also parts of Rin, Illya and Kotomine)
Mastermind->Shinji (pushes the heroine over the edge, their demise launches the final act)
Grail->Phoenix Force

and so on

[Rafflesiac]

Saw the new Spider-Man.

Spoiler:

[Mostly good, but I dislike how Peter doesn't want to be Spider-Man, especially after Infinity War where he willingly involved himself in a large-scale conflict.

Mysterio being fake Tony was good. Humor was good; lol at Chad Brad. Action and illusions were good. But man, with Peter's identity blown, how is this going to bear out in his next movie? Even if Mysterio becomes known to the public as a villain, Peter and everyone he knows will be under incredible scrutiny, especially by two-bit goons with nothing to lose. Also Mysterio's totally not dead.]

[SpoonyViking]

- The importance of the cast is strictly proportional to how close they are to Jean, which means Cyclops/Jean > Wolverine >= Xavier > everyone else.

In the comics at the time, Wolverine's feelings for Jean were pretty one-sided. I can't recall it exactly, but I think she didn't even know about them yet. Xavier and Ororo, who was very close friends with her, should be right underneath Cyclops in terms of importance.

[AsGryffynn]

I dunno the whole “snap weakened the barriers between worlds lol” from the Homecoming trailer seems like a pretty versatile handwave

Expect failure...

Spoiler:

Bruh no, Quentin is a liar...

- - - Updated - - -

I went into Dark Phoenix expecting it to be terrible and it honestly wasn't even that bad. It was at least better than Apocalypse and some of the other shittier Marvel movies. Jean was surprisingly the best part.

That said, the antagonists were goofy as fuck. I really question the decision to go with monsters who have human appearances, it made all the action sequences with them comical. Generic CGI mooks would even have been preferable.

My only gripe was choosing to make Chastain into Vuk instead of Lilandra. Apparently, that was the idea until Cap'n Marvel happened. I actually liked this movie but hate HZ, so I was less thrilled with the score. I miss John Ottman.

Haven't seen it yet. Probably not going to see it.

But IMO, these are the core parts of the original Phoenix arc:

- Ultimately, Jean-Phoenix is just overdriven normal Jean.
- In particular, she's supposed to be very human, emotional, joyful, etc. Not just drunk with power. Definitely not a typical villain.
- There should be a visible process, a slippery slope that drives her over the edge.
- When she becomes drunk with power, she's still definitely herself (think Dark Sakura).
- Her loved ones (especially Cyclops) have face the primal fear she inspires and that provides juicy character moments.
- They also have to pick sides in the inevitable final confrontation.
- She keeps her humanity intact until the end.
- The importance of the cast is strictly proportional to how close they are to Jean, which means Cyclops/Jean > Wolverine >= Xavier > everyone else.

A straight adaptation should try to keep most of these. Considering the utter inability of the X-Men cinematic franchise at making Cyclops an interesting character*, I think I'll pass on this one.

Dark Phoenix is sort of the Heaven's Feel of X-Men continuity**. It's no wonder the movie adaptations keep failing at it. I mean, it's not something you can just shoehorn in into the usual "cinematic universe" formula. I guess it could be the payoff for years of character building, but good luck finding a studio other than Disney/Marvel with the patience to plan out that kind of thing.

* For the record, I also consider Sophie Turner as Jean Grey to be a miscast. I think she'd be an excellent Emma Frost, though.

** One could even make the following extended analogy:

Jean->Sakura (the possessed heroine)
Cyclops->Shirou (the goody-two-shoes hero and love interest who takes the side of the "evil" heroine)
Wolverine->Rin (loves the heroine and is loved back, but there's something keeping them apart, and he knows he's supposed to kill her. Xavier's role has also parts of Rin, Illya and Kotomine)
Mastermind->Shinji (pushes the heroine over the edge, their demise launches the final act)
Grail->Phoenix Force

and so on

I'd trust Marvel Studios less to be honest. After FFH, I definitely don't trust Feige.

Also, take the Sophie Turner comment back!

- - - Updated - - -

Saw the new Spider-Man.

Spoiler:

[Mostly good, but I dislike how Peter doesn't want to be Spider-Man, especially after Infinity War where he willingly involved himself in a large-scale conflict.

Mysterio being fake Tony was good. Humor was good; lol at Chad Brad. Action and illusions were good. But man, with Peter's identity blown, how is this going to bear out in his next movie? Even if Mysterio becomes known to the public as a villain, Peter and everyone he knows will be under incredible scrutiny, especially by two-bit goons with nothing to lose. Also Mysterio's totally not dead.]

Spoiler:

Saw it for Mysterio and J Jonah. Was not disappointed by them, especially JK Simmons back in business! Gives me hope we'll see Fassneto and Professor McAvoy later on.
Hate everything regarding Peter's love interests (there's no Spiderman without Mary Jane or Gwen Stacy and they were already on thin ice with Uncle Ben) and where they seem to be heading (replacing Mary Jane altogether).

[Mattias]

Mary Jane's in the movie though. And the last one. She's just April Ludgate from Parks and Rec now.

[Rafflesiac]

Also,

Spoiler:

[Dick Fury is an asshole.

"of course you can't take a vacation peter" he says, while on vacation]

[aldeayeah]

In the comics at the time, Wolverine's feelings for Jean were pretty one-sided. I can't recall it exactly, but I think she didn't even know about them yet. Xavier and Ororo, who was very close friends with her, should be right underneath Cyclops in terms of importance.

If you reread Classic X-Men, you'll see the Logan-Jean stuff was there from the very beginning (literally issue #1). Of course, much of the Logan-Jean stuff is post-Dark Phoenix Saga, but there's still a lot in there.

I agree about Ororo being important though, but not more than Logan.

[aldeayeah]

Also, take the Sophie Turner comment back!

Jean was one of my first waifus, so I have a strong image of her looks, demeanor, etc which Sophie doesn't fit

[weeblord]

MCU MJ reminds me of Ultimate Gwen, the only spidey waifu outside of black cat that I’ve ever liked so thats good.

as for spidey ffh:

Spoiler:

Gyllenhaal as Mysterio was awesome. I always loved the character and I feel like they really did him justice. I hope he survived if theyre building up towards Sinister Six.

My complaint about not enough Spider sense in MCU was perfectly addressed by treating it as a shounen ass powerup to defeat Mysterio. The action scenes were awesome and really spidermanish, and Mysterios first illusion attack on Spidey was really cool with how he kept running into walls, floor, etc.

Also loved how the trailers all put huge focus on the multiverse and had people speculating all kinds of crazy shit, then Quentin in the movie just laughs at people buying stupid shit like that. Nice little meta gotcha moment.

As for the negatives, not sure how I feel about spidey getting unmasked, being a masked crime fighter is such a crucial part of spideys identity. Fury and hill being skrull impersonators was a fuck you kick in the dick, hated it a lot. Peter having access to killer drones from space and lmost killing his classmate for cuckng him was also dumb AF.

imo all in all better than Homecoming.