Tsukihime Remake Thread - NOT THE SPOILER THREAD

[Ratman]

The thing is that Arcueid is already Crimson Moon. Growing into him is the entire original purpose of her existence. She just strongly denies it, so she isn't.

Now, for the record, there are at least two Warcs - Tatari Warc and Arcade Warc. You'd think they are very different, like with Nanaya not having MEoDP at all, or Kouma being different from actual Kouma by being based on Shiki's 10 years old memory, but they blend together quite a bit in their dialogue.

Tatari Warc is mostly an image of blood-starved Warc combined with (maybe Ciel's?) understanding of the full consequences of what that actually means, which is her accepting the succession to Crimson Moon. Ciel calls Warc 'Arcueid's vampiric impulses manifested'.
White Len, though, more accurately calls her 'the part of Arcueid she chooses to repress'. She explains that Warc in melty after the original story is drawn out of Arcueid herself with succubus powers, meaning she is a little different than the 'image' of blood-crazed Arc from the original Melty. Then we deal with Aoko, who says this:

Spoiler:

later in mbaacc, we get this gem:

Spoiler:

https://imgur.com/Csgto8Mhttps://imgur.com/Csgto8M[/img]

Now, Tatari Warc openly considered herself to be Crimson Moon, or at least his rightful successor, and speaks on his behalf a bit. Even Arcueid herself arguably does, in the finale. But Tatari Warc does not get that much screentime.

Meanwhlie, despite being nuts, Arcade Warc does a lot of relatively calm and collected discussion with other people. You could call her Arcueid's Jungian Shadow, if you wanted to be pretentious about it, but aside of getting personal with Shiki and Ciel, she also gets meta with Wallachia and such, and the ReAct ending poem calls her 'a false crimson moon'. The implication still seems to be that if the opinions she expresses are not ones ol' Brunestud had, Arcueid at least believes that he would say that. That includes, for one, making the distinction to Dust of Osiris that while they both want to remove humans, warc does not want to leave the Earth useless, or let humanity end its history on its own terms, she just wants to kill humans forever. Or, most interestingly, thinking that Archetype is still a lame and boring person enslaved to human whims.

- - - Updated - - -

Basically I didn't exactly mean that warc shares CM's actual character, but rather that she hints at what it is when being calm and collected - which would be not just 'cruel', but mainly quite thick-headed and systematic.

- - - Updated - - -

Obsessive is also a good word, and I guess vampiric impulses are pretty compulsive.

[aldeayeah]

For the record, the 'i won't wait for the sixth' line predates MBAACC by several releases, and appears as early as MBR.

[Ratman]

Win quote vs. hime is also pretty soulful.

Spoiler:

[Misaya]

I've always had the impression that Crimson Moon was pretty much Archetype Earth, but even more inhuman and cruel.

Not really. In the latest version of her, normal Arcueid (funny vamp version) still sense and can take control Archetype Earth's actions while they are in different timeline at the same time. So I not sure they still seperate existences anymore, I mean Archetype Earth is believed to be Arc with Crimson Moon personality but funny vamp still be funny vamp. There is the interesting point that there is image of red moon appear in the sky before Archetype Earth appear and she even has authority over the owner of virtual world system in Logos React.

[Mementore]

Not really. In the latest version of her, normal Arcueid (funny vamp version) still sense and can take control Archetype Earth's actions while they are in different timeline at the same time. So I not sure they still seperate existences anymore, I mean Archetype Earth is believed to be Arc with Crimson Moon personality but funny vamp still be funny vamp. There is the interesting point that there is image of red moon appear in the sky before Archetype Earth appear and she even has authority over the owner of virtual world system in Logos React.

My opinion was mostly due to

For just a moment we get to see a glimpse of the true power of the vampire princess named Arcueid. The illusion behind her is her original form. This form, power, and thinking itself can be said to be the Crimson Moon.

Deep beneath her conscious mind lies a guiding principle known as the “Crimson Moon,” which very rarely expresses itself through her surface personality. This is the true identity of the vaguely self-important Arcueid that appeared when Shiki invaded Arcueid’s dream (in Kagetsu Tohya), and who confronted the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors (in Melty Blood). She is colloquially known as “Princess Arc.”

These two quotes.

[Nanaya]

Guiding Principle is a good description. KT and MB always sort of implied to me that AE/Princess Arc and CM aren't really the same. Not in the same vein as you would think as when Roa manifests in a host or something. It comes off more as Arc's personality as it's influenced by her origins. She still seems distinctly an aspect of normal Arc and vice-versa where Arc as Shiki knows her wouldn't really be complete without both. I also distinctly remember AE referring to how their 'father' will be disappointed in them while conversing with Arcueid.

That said: Arc becoming CM is still a far-off potential. How exactly that would present itself is an interesting thought but Arc/AE as we know her doesn't really seem like the end result in terms of mentality and will. Possibly in terms of position or concept/role she may be. She's also kind of the brain of the planet itself too so Arcs pretty complicated- I want TsukiRE to cover this shit more than anything. I'm hoping Shiki confronts her in her entirety.

[Leftovers]

Archetype is what happens when a True Ancestor (a "seed of CM's potential" produced by a reality marble) has a body of sufficient purity and power (eg. one able to recreate the Millennium Castle and so be marked as "Brunestud"; consider also that along with [or because of] losing some of her power Arcueid cannot assume the form of the Princess until she retrieves her hair) which causes the aspect latent in each and every True Ancestor as beings that are "the same but different" to CM to manifest. In Arcueid's case, what keeps her from "becoming CM" is her sense of self and an inability to "accept CM in her current state", which may yet wear away in her imprisonment and leave the way open for the aspect of CM to take over. Hence Archetype is both "the princess of the True Ancestors, Arcueid's true form" (not in her intended role as the executioner of the TA but as a being that can "become CM") and currently a possibility, the "shadow of Arcueid Brunestud". Were the aspect of CM to take over, his plan to be reborn as part of the order that would inevitably reject him in his original form would be complete.

At this point one thing should be considered: talking about a "rebirth" of CM-as-an-individual in terms of his essence/soul/what-have-you as transmigrating into/possessing a body is not supported by the mechanics he put in place. He desires to maintain his "will" and embeds a "principle known as CM" within the TA. When this principle/will takes control of a body which matches the specifications of CM's power and purity, out comes a being that thinks and acts like CM while boasting abilities equal to CM - a successor in every way. As Shiki discerns, if it's an aspect of the original, it's the same as the original no matter how it looks. The rebirth of CM is most likely a figurative one through the creation of a being that is practically the same as the original. Whether his goal is to bend the planet to his will as its brain or enact the plan alluded to in the fable of the Prologue, it should not matter in the slightest whether it is his original self or his identical daughterclone doing it. Of course, whether or not it can really be pulled off is another matter.

[LJ3]

i'm glad to see this talk there, this was something I didn't really get until last year

[Mattias]

It feels a bit weird that Arc's sense of self is what stops her from becoming CM, when prior to Shiki going murder spree on her she acted very robotic, and spend decades inactive waiting for Roa to show up again.

[Leftovers]

Chaining herself after the bloodlust rampage is a factor preventing the takeover (considering the Roa visit is a memory from before the events of Tsuki) but one could posit her murderbot self might've been easier to supplant than the one after she tripped on a rock made of knives.

[Nanaya]

Chaining herself after the bloodlust rampage is a factor preventing the takeover (considering the Roa visit is a memory from before the events of Tsuki) but one could posit her murderbot self might've been easier to supplant than the one after she tripped on a rock made of knives.

It's also said that leaving her chained in that state will help facilitate it though in the end.

Archetype is what happens when a True Ancestor (a "seed of CM's potential" produced by a reality marble) has a body of sufficient purity and power (eg. one able to recreate the Millennium Castle and so be marked as "Brunestud"; consider also that along with [or because of] losing some of her power Arcueid cannot assume the form of the Princess until she retrieves her hair) which causes the aspect latent in each and every True Ancestor as beings that are "the same but different" to CM to manifest. In Arcueid's case, what keeps her from "becoming CM" is her sense of self and an inability to "accept CM in her current state", which may yet wear away in her imprisonment and leave the way open for the aspect of CM to take over. Hence Archetype is both "the princess of the True Ancestors, Arcueid's true form (not in her intended role as the executioner of the TA but as a being that can "become CM") and currently a possibility, the "shadow of Arcueid Brunestud". Were the aspect of CM to take over, his plan to be reborn as part of the order that would inevitably reject him in his original form would be complete.

At this point one thing should be considered: talking about a "rebirth" of CM-as-an-individual in terms of his essence/soul/what-have-you as transmigrating into/possessing a body is not supported by the mechanics he put in place. He desires to maintain his "will" and embeds a "principle known as CM" within the TA. When this principle/will takes control of a body which matches the specifications of CM's power and purity, out comes a being that thinks and acts like CM while boasting abilities equal to CM - a successor in every way. As Shiki discerns, if it's an aspect of the original, it's the same as the original no matter how it looks. The rebirth of CM is most likely a figurative one through the creation of a being that is practically the same as the original. Whether his goal is to bend the planet to his will as its brain or enact the plan alluded to in the fable of the Prologue, it should not matter in the slightest whether it is his original self or his identical daughterclone doing it. Of course, whether or not it can really be pulled off is another matter.

From what I understand this seems like a proper interpretation of it but I think the bit about being the same yet different at the same time needs to be stressed. Like AE/Princess Arc/Funny vamp-Arc/whatever are all Arc like Shiki discerns. Arc can be crowned the crimson moon and fill that perfectly but she wouldn't be the same as her 'father'. It's not like Roa style reincarnation for sure so I think "The rebirth of CM is most likely a figurative one through the creation of a being that is practically the same as the original." is probably how it's always been meant to play out. Using shitty Isekai to describe it, it would be like differentiating the demon lord who reincarnates in someone else's body vs someone taking in the power and essence of the concept of demon lord and succeeding them. This is the plot for Tsuki 2 Arc route btw. Shiki gonna have to remind the revived CM who she actually is and help Arc get an existential grip on herself.

[Mattias]

Chaining herself after the bloodlust rampage is a factor preventing the takeover (considering the Roa visit is a memory from before the events of Tsuki) but one could posit her murderbot self might've been easier to supplant than the one after she tripped on a rock made of knives.

Does CM need a Lovecraftian celestial alignment to be reborn, or does it just happen once a vampire meets the proper conditions? Because it seems like Arc already checks off a bunch of those boxes and has periods when the mitigating factors don't really exist. Both Dark Six and TATARI need specific conditions, but CM always felt more like an ever present looming threat rather than something that needs to be triggered.

[Leftovers]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

- - - Updated - - -

though speaking of los seis de oscuridad, aylesbury /was/ a ritual established by cm......

- - - Updated - - -

Also you could consider the ominous beginning of Crimson Moon (KT) where he thinks about how human order was stronger than expected but he'll play the long game as an indication of....things....relevant to....stuff....

[Dullahan]

KUBOOOOOOOOOO

[Comun]

Shouldn't it be Los Seis Oscuros, with Los Seis de Oscuridad being "The Darkness Six"?

[Leftovers]

Shouldn't it be Los Seis Oscuros, with Los Seis de Oscuridad being "The Darkness Six"?

KUBOOOOOOOOOO

　

[Misaya]

I knew about losing her hair so she cant be back to that aspect and seed of CM but I think them are kinda out date now, especially when remake announced 10 years ago. Archetype or hime version considered to be another self of her or different aspect which Sion also believed that. The point is in Back Alley manga, Arcueid can take over herself in hime version (who is manifesting in different timeline) and pull Sion back when she say back to the pool. Sion already thought normal Arcueid wouldnot know about that because seperate but Arc really know what happen in that timeline. I think that is the big change in what we know about Arcueid and Archetype, maybe Nasu do that to serve the purpose of remake version or just some weeds shjt he tries to put in because that just a experimental manga for collab of Fate and Tsukihime world. Also, I think in MBAACC Arcueid actually goes back to her hime version by her own will when Ryougi defeated Tohno?

[aldeayeah]

As a native Spanish speaker, IMO Los Oscuro Seis is the right amount of Japanish.

[Nanaya]

I knew about losing her hair so she cant be back to that aspect and seed of CM but I think them are kinda out date now, especially when remake announced 10 years ago. Archetype or hime version considered to be another self of her or different aspect which Sion also believed that. The point is in Back Alley manga, Arcueid can take over herself in hime version (who is manifesting in different timeline) and pull Sion back when she say back to the pool. Sion already thought normal Arcueid wouldnot know about that because seperate but Arc really know what happen in that timeline. I think that is the big change in what we know about Arcueid and Archetype, maybe Nasu do that to serve the purpose of remake version or just some weeds shjt he tries to put in because that just a experimental manga for collab of Fate and Tsukihime world. Also, I think in MBAACC Arcueid actually goes back to her hime version by her own will when Ryougi defeated Tohno?

I think the point is that it proves the truth of what Shiki said in KT. That it doesn't matter because both aspects are the existence known as Arcueid Brunestud so it's consistent with how it's always been. Likewise in MB, Hime shows clear emotions towards Shiki and Ciel clearly as a result of being part of 'Arc'. Especially when Tohno got killed.

This does make me think though. Why was Arc a target of elimination in MB when part of the whole revival of CM being that the original was a target whereas the successor wouldn't be?

[Ratman]

ojos místicos de la percepción de la muerte