Tsukihime Remake Thread - NOT THE SPOILER THREAD

[weeblord]

please learn from this guy before acting like purist

Please do not try to normalize shimazaki's behavior.

[fumei]

The reason I bring it up is because I don't like Nasu making new universes when it's not needed. Like why exactly is fate zero a separate universe than FSN? It's supposed to be a prequal that explains events that are mentioned but never explianed in FSN, as well as solidifying shiou character motivations even further. Saying after the fact that it's not really the same universe is just trolling. Like what is the point?

There's no "trolling", because he never went "oh it's a different universe LOL gotcha suckers", there was just a footnote at the end that said "yeah some really minor details are different so just think of it like an alternate version of the backstory explained in FSN". Like Leftovers said, it's just a means of saying "look, urobuchi didn't get all the details exactly right but that doesn't matter, don't think too hard about it" but because it's Nasu he's justifying it with a timeline answer.

Tsukimhime is the same way. It takes place at a different time and place as FSN. Nothing from FSN is in tsukihime so one event shouldn't be able to effect the other or cause it to happen differently.

Except the whole split is because of thematic reasons, not because of plot points, so it's rather moot to begin with.

The main point is it's just goes down better if it can be make into one timeline. I understand when they have a crazy idea like Requiem that goes against everything thats established. But things like FZ, FSN, FSF, and Case files should be in the same timeline. The fact that they are not is just bad planning and writing.

FSN is already on its own AT LEAST three different timelines with the routes, that's the whole point why HA can follow "every route and no route at once" and why it has to be so convoluted to even fit with FSN. The fact that FZ is "the backstory to FSN but slightly different enough to be an alternate timeline" similarly doesn't matter at all, and we already know CF follows from FSN, but again, what route does it follow from? Your argument is flawed because it was split like this from the very start, and on top of what others have said about it just being a tool to repurpose a setting (which, by the way, does not equate to poor planning or writing, but rather just acts as an incentive for other writers to use the existing material in an original story, just like in [name your favorite extensive fictional universe]), the only thing the Tsuki-Fate split does is make a more distinct separation between the themes of the stories contained therein. You said it yourself, Tsukihime was never related to or affected FSN so why is it suddenly a big deal that they can't be together, just because Nasu now said so explicitly?

[neveron]

AUs kind of seem like they're inevitable in any franchise that A) cares about continuity, B) has multiple authors with conflicting visions, C) runs for a long enough time

eventually those different authors make enough small creative differences that someone comes along and says "these thing go in Bucket A and care about each other, these things go in Bucket B, and future works will say which bucket they're in"

or you get a big canon reset like in Star Wars or DC Comics

at the very least, you eventually get an author who wants to make their own thing - this is especially common in film adaptations, e.g. the "can I watch Spiderman: Far From Home without first having seen 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1?" joke

[falseCeilings]

Basically, AUs is what you resort to when your story requires a systemic overhaul of a highly systematised setting.

It's a good thing. Functionally a built-in mechanism for ignoring things you don't like.

It's what I appreciate about TYPE-MOON works. No pretense of the one true canon - just familiar faces from different perspectives. Enjoy what you can.

[migliole]

AUs are not an issue in itself, because like it was said, it is something kind of inevitable if you want to tell other tales, what ifs and overall just wanna focus on some other aspect. It is pretty clear that Nasu follows such path as he always, in interviews, ask us to "not think too much about it".

However, AUs are an issue when you start to use AUs as a mechanic to your story which is the case of FGO and probably the general reason or atleast source of the reason why people often dislike it.

[fumei]

However, AUs are an issue when you start to use AUs as a mechanic to your story which is the case of FGO and probably the general reason or atleast source of the reason why people often dislike it.

I don't think this is true, at least not from my experience. I see two camps of people who dislike them, and it's either because they hate pruning (not that it's used to tell bad stories but that the system on its own is just bad), or it's people who are way too up in arms about Nasu splitting Tsuki and Fate (and in this case it mostly devolves into screaming "PLOT HOLES" and calling Nasu a hack for "always retconning his stuff omg" etc, not that it necessarily means something bad for any story in itself).

[neveron]

To be fair to FGO, its use of AUs largely has to do with making them no longer AU (be it through fixing whatever time paradox is going on in a singularity or, y'know, doing two Thanos snaps to Lostbelts). The ending of each arc tends to be some variant of "good job fixing that weirdness, now it will no longer be weird". I think the only time they don't get fixed is for gag events and crossovers?

Honestly kind of just a bog-standard "someone's messing with the timeline! go fix it!" time travel story. Like, on a whim I found the Wikipedia page for Poul Anderson's 1955 short story Delenda Est, and it's literally just the Lostbelts down to the moral quandary. "A rogue time traveler assassinated Scipio Africanus, letting Hannibal conquer Rome and changing world history! Will you travel back in time to save Scipio, restoring your world but deleting the billions of people in this timeline from existence?"

On the other hand, Tsukihime being separate from Fate is just the result of an author creating two works with distinct themes, wanting them to be in the same world for whatever reason, and backpedaling a bit to say "well, it's in a similar world..." when they realize that the ideas they have for the future of one don't mesh with the ideas they have for the other. One's an author creating and deleting temporary AUs within a single work, the other's an author using them as a justification for how two incompatible works share background details and characters.


...Actually, come think of it, doesn't Fate/Hollow Ataraxia have a sly reference to Akiha and her private school? I think I remember a scene with Sakura talking about it?

[TomPen94]

I don't think this is true, at least not from my experience. I see two camps of people who dislike them, and it's either because they hate pruning (not that it's used to tell bad stories but that the system on its own is just bad), or it's people who are way too up in arms about Nasu splitting Tsuki and Fate (and in this case it mostly devolves into screaming "PLOT HOLES" and calling Nasu a hack for "always retconning his stuff omg" etc, not that it necessarily means something bad for any story in itself).

Nah I think ppl just want Fate and Tsuki crossovers without timeline hopping.
At least... that's what I would like.

[fumei]

Nah I think ppl just want Fate and Tsuki crossovers without timeline hopping.
At least... that's what I would like.

Does that matter, though? We already have Prototype crossover with Nu-Fate, MBBAA, stuff like Requiem in FGO, and even Strange Fake which already constitutes a "world with both". Combining the two for a crossover isn't really a relevant argument because that does not exactly contribute to the "thematic divide" that the split is meant to represent, and just exist because an author wants to make something fun with characters from both. It will happen regardless because it's just that - something fun. FGO already messes with everything timeline-related so we already have the justification for Tsukihime stuff appearing there, the split won't matter in these cases except for someone in-universe going "you know if the FGO world weren't so fucked this wouldn't be possible".

[TomPen94]

Of course it doesn't matter. It ain't like, even if Fate and Tsuki did share a timeline, we would have more crossovers or anything like that.
At least to me it's more of a question of being OCD. When I came into the fandom I was left with a severe impression they did share a timeline, and that has only been corrected now.
It's whatever really.

[TheSeaDragon]

Werent worlds of fate and wolds of tsuki established like, long time ago? And it really works better that way dont know why people nowadays want everything happening in the same settin, i like to call it the MCU effect. They are already in the same multiverse

[Mattias]

However, AUs are an issue when you start to use AUs as a mechanic to your story which is the case of FGO and probably the general reason or atleast source of the reason why people often dislike it.

I think you're fooling yourself. People who dislike FGO don't really care about the mechanics of it, they tend to dislike it because 1) gacha is a predatory business model based on milking fans for every penny you can, or 2) that due to limitations of it being a mobile game, it's story is a pale imitation of the original work it's based on. The mechanics stuff comes later when they start looking for more reasons to shit on it aside from being a papaerthin excuse to get people to break the bank fro waifus.

[TheSeaDragon]

is not like anyone is pointing a gun at them to whale

I lie waifus but i can see them on pixiv for free, i dont have a FGO account, i watch the story on youtube. People who plays must find some enjoyement on it

[TomPen94]

No one's pointing a gun at a guy that goes to the casino to gamble his money away, yet gambling is regulated, so should gachas. That's how I see it.

Werent worlds of fate and wolds of tsuki established like, long time ago? And it really works better that way dont know why people nowadays want everything happening in the same settin, i like to call it the MCU effect. They are already in the same multiverse

That's why I said "corrected". It was like this for a long time.

[Fox Room]

This should be enough for people to understand why Nasu doesn't mind AUs. Not really sure how this indicates bad writing or planning.

Honestly I don't get interpreting this as "this is literally an alternate universe"

[Blastedspider]

...Actually, come think of it, doesn't Fate/Hollow Ataraxia have a sly reference to Akiha and her private school? I think I remember a scene with Sakura talking about it?

It's mostly a joke. Sakura chats with Medea and expresses what frustrates her about Rin but as Shirou is also there she can't call her Tohsaka, so she mangles the name to "Tohno". This also lampshades the fact that both Rin and Akiha share the same character "archetype" so to speak.

[neveron]

Of course it doesn't matter. It ain't like, even if Fate and Tsuki did share a timeline, we would have more crossovers or anything like that.
At least to me it's more of a question of being OCD. When I came into the fandom I was left with a severe impression they did share a timeline, and that has only been corrected now.
It's whatever really.

Wasn't Café Ahnenerbe already explicitly a weird crossover vehicle that made the impossible possible? I guess you might have been under the impression that that was just a comedy thing, though, or to allow specifically the Tohno/Ryougi special snowflake paradox.

[madarra]

I wonder if the Fate Tsuki split wasnt enforced cuz Nasu plans to break the world in Tsuki 2 to the point you can have Fate stories in it anymore(Aylesbury turns the world into Extra except later than 1970) , or if he just wanted to hide his vampires from Sanda's NOT/actually servants (pseudo is already taken)

- - - Updated - - -

Also claiming Touka and Arc cant be in the same setting is iffy cuz they are already both in Extra... Isnt one of the meetings with Gatou in front of the Aozaki church?

[SteelBeowulf]

There's no "trolling", because he never went "oh it's a different universe LOL gotcha suckers", there was just a footnote at the end that said "yeah some really minor details are different so just think of it like an alternate version of the backstory explained in FSN". Like Leftovers said, it's just a means of saying "look, urobuchi didn't get all the details exactly right but that doesn't matter, don't think too hard about it" but because it's Nasu he's justifying it with a timeline answer.


Except the whole split is because of thematic reasons, not because of plot points, so it's rather moot to begin with.


FSN is already on its own AT LEAST three different timelines with the routes, that's the whole point why HA can follow "every route and no route at once" and why it has to be so convoluted to even fit with FSN. The fact that FZ is "the backstory to FSN but slightly different enough to be an alternate timeline" similarly doesn't matter at all, and we already know CF follows from FSN, but again, what route does it follow from? Your argument is flawed because it was split like this from the very start, and on top of what others have said about it just being a tool to repurpose a setting (which, by the way, does not equate to poor planning or writing, but rather just acts as an incentive for other writers to use the existing material in an original story, just like in [name your favorite extensive fictional universe]), the only thing the Tsuki-Fate split does is make a more distinct separation between the themes of the stories contained therein. You said it yourself, Tsukihime was never related to or affected FSN so why is it suddenly a big deal that they can't be together, just because Nasu now said so explicitly?

Ain't these the point of Ahnenerbe? A place to crossover without ever need of explaining things?

[TomPen94]

There's no "trolling", because he never went "oh it's a different universe LOL gotcha suckers", there was just a footnote at the end that said "yeah some really minor details are different so just think of it like an alternate version of the backstory explained in FSN". Like Leftovers said, it's just a means of saying "look, urobuchi didn't get all the details exactly right but that doesn't matter, don't think too hard about it" but because it's Nasu he's justifying it with a timeline answer.


Except the whole split is because of thematic reasons, not because of plot points, so it's rather moot to begin with.


FSN is already on its own AT LEAST three different timelines with the routes, that's the whole point why HA can follow "every route and no route at once" and why it has to be so convoluted to even fit with FSN. The fact that FZ is "the backstory to FSN but slightly different enough to be an alternate timeline" similarly doesn't matter at all, and we already know CF follows from FSN, but again, what route does it follow from? Your argument is flawed because it was split like this from the very start, and on top of what others have said about it just being a tool to repurpose a setting (which, by the way, does not equate to poor planning or writing, but rather just acts as an incentive for other writers to use the existing material in an original story, just like in [name your favorite extensive fictional universe]), the only thing the Tsuki-Fate split does is make a more distinct separation between the themes of the stories contained therein. You said it yourself, Tsukihime was never related to or affected FSN so why is it suddenly a big deal that they can't be together, just because Nasu now said so explicitly?

I mean... I'm not sure I agree with the thematic purpose thing. Where does that leave KnK? It is thematically closer to Tsukihime than Fate, yet it kinda has to be a Fate world for the split to work mechanically.

As for everything else, we just gotta accept and move on. Likw Nasu said "don't think too hard about it". I do think that aproach works for the opposite point as well. As in "FZ doesn't have every single little detail right but it still fits, don't think too hard about it". But it is what it is.

If some author out there decides to write a story with Tsuki and FSN chatacters in a universe where events similar to Tsuki's and FSN's both played out then they will. And nothing's stopping them. And it'll become yet another AU with a merged world or something.