Yeah. I just mean if Sakura was willing to use a Command Spell then Rider would probably see she is serious about it and would probably listen. Even if she did not actually use the CS. Also, wouldn't the book basically be the same thing? Even if Shinji has the book it is not like it can make Rider obey his every command, so she would still have to be willing to work with him. Or is it like, a constant Command Spell or something.Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
It is a book with the command saying, "Matou Shinji must be obeyed" (remember the Matou created the Command Seals, so there was probably a cheat involved) including having that shadow spell (using Rider's mana) to attack. So the reason it was used was like you said, he could feel as if he was a magus temporarily.
"Fate/stay night: not really an eroge, and not really a cooking sim, but actually an RPG wherein everyone’s primary stat is “self-loathing” and the goal is to level it up beyond all the other characters."
Wow this thread exploded.
With Shinji stuff.
That's pretty new to me. It was good Shinji stuff though, so hey why not.
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No, it is stated somewhere in the side-materials that Rider refused to fight with Shinji. Although, really, Sakura handing mastership to Shinji without the book would have been extremely dangerous, because anyone could have noticed Sakura as the master and attacked her. Plus, it would have meant Shinji had no direct way to order Rider around, even with a command spell telling her to obey him. Such a command spell would be pretty weak, I think, whereas the book presumably is a little less general, and also possesses some of the power of the command spell within it, and thus can compel Rider to do things.
Rider does seem to think like that, yeah. For example, Sakura's final command spell in HF shouldn't, by rights, have any effect on her, because using the last command spell nullifies any right the master has to order the servant around, including existing command spells. But, it does act as a demonstration of Sakura's true desires, and since Rider cares for Sakura she recognises that she needs to be freed from Angra Mainyu rather than obeying her even in her insane form, as Rider originally intended.
Last edited by Spartan; February 27th, 2013 at 03:19 PM.
First, if you're gonna say side-material you should specify which?
Second, command spells don't work like that. Using the third command spell does not break the contract. It just uses the last command spell. The leyline is still there, and any command seals are still in effect. Otherwise Saber would have been like, "Lol you dun goofed Kiritsugu EXCALIBUR ON THE GILGAMESH NOT ON THE GRAIL!" And the entire grail war trick would never work because the servants would laugh their asses off at the order to off themselves at the end?
I can't remember which one it's from.
And, no, using the final command spell doesn't break the contract, but it does prevent itself and any other existing command spells having a long-term effect. That's why Sakura couldn't use her last command spell to make the book for Shinji.
Plus, it's pretty clear that Rider's order to protect Shirou is having no real effect, because at no point in the final three days does she make any effort to do that. She assists him in saving Sakura, yes, but she never actively protects him from harm, or does anything to prevent him harming himself. The most she does is avoid directly killing him. It's clear throughout that all she cares about is Sakura's well-being, and Shirou is only a means to an end in that respect.
I think they'd have to follow the last order if it is something immediate, but after that they are pretty much free to do as they please.
Also in Unlimited Codes (sound the alarms) Kojiro turns right around and kills Caster after he tricks her into using her last Command Spell.
There were other examples in FSN but I can't think of any right now. Also, breaking the contract ~> seals no longer are in effect.
Also the book itself definitely seems to have some constant Command Spell power, since when Rider got almost cut in half during her first fight with Saber in HF, she is just dying on the ground and Shinji yells at her to get up, and you see the effects of a Command Spell on her. She can't get up since she is too wounded so you see the effects like when Saber tries to resist a Command Spell.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
... she has MR. Sakura while not a shit tier master is nowhere near Rin's or Ilya's level and "protect Shirou" is a vague order. This whole third command seal nullifying the rest seems like something that isn't a thing?
Hm, maybe it is just, as long as the contract is in effect, the orders stand... Memory 2 fuzzy
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Actually, in terms of her ability as a master Sakura is on the same level as Rin. She has the same prana supply, after all. So, her orders should have just as much effect as Rin's do. Plus, she doesn't show any signs of being weighted down when she's letting Shirou endanger himself.
Also going back to Shinji, part of the reason I liked that whole scene was because it was something new that this whole "everybody comes back to life" plot gives us that we don't get from other fics. Same with Kotomine and Gilgamesh and Rider being back too and having a chance to renew their grudges or make changes. We never have seen that before, but Archer and Saber and everyone else we already have seen plenty of. Although I still like them too.
If you mean after Sakura goes Dark, couldn't it be because Sakura is no longer her Master? I am pretty sure Rider has to use her Independent Action and get mana from various leylines to stay around. No contract, no binding of command spells.
Last edited by mAc Chaos; February 27th, 2013 at 03:48 PM.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Slightly late, but it's this one.
There's no reason why the contract would be broken, though, as far as I can tell. Plus, Rider remains afterwards despite not obviously contracting with Sakura.
Why wouldn't Sakura just make her fight for her? She has a giant command spell all over her.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
I don't think that's a command spell, it's just a sign of her darkness.
It is a command spell.
It's just for Angra Mainyu, not Rider.
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Heroes of Justice
Semi-Random Pieces and Drabbles
Diaries of a Youthful Maiden
??? - new project, coming soon (by Valve time)
You can use other Servants command spells interchangeably though, otherwise there would be no reason to steal any and Kotomine would not be able to use his extra ones to coerce any extra Servant if he wanted.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Not when her magical energy is being tied up by worms and being a grail vessel she isn't. And when would that second bit have mattered? The only time when Rider "allowed" Shirou to endanger himself while she was hanging out was during blood fort andromeda and at the end IIRC. And at the end Rider understood the calculated risk Shirou was taking and, as part of the plan, was moving to support him the second he was in the line of fire.
And thanks Koto!
Yeah, that's definitely the case. I don't recall anything saying that her tattoos are any form of command spell, though, and nor does she seem to possess one for Avenger (it is controlling her more than the converse).
She is its Master but it doesn't care because it is taking her over anyway. I will find the CS reference when I get on a computer.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
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