From http://hiki.cre.jp/typemoon/?cmd=vie...A3%B6%E2%BD%D1:
The part in red: "[Alchemists of Atlas] are characteristically low in thaumaturgical circuits, and are hard put to independently perform nature interference techniques."アトラス院ではそれに加えて事象の変換も研究している。錬金術、その中でも思考分割、高速思考といった、人体を演算装置とする術に特化している。魔術回路数が少ないことも特徴で、単体では自然干渉系の術はまったく使えない。しかしそれをよしとしている。「最強になる必要はない。最強であるものを作ればいいのだから」 がモットー。
Last edited by fallacies; October 7th, 2012 at 07:24 AM.
I'll rethink the case of Mystic Eyes. As I said, I can see them as a form of Thaumaturgy, but it's a bit of a stretch.
No, but I did play the game. Miss something, did I?Originally Posted by Spinach
English is not my first language; please pardon any typos I will inevitably make.
See above.
Noted. Thank you.
I'll rethink the idea of grouped Thaumaturgy, too.
English is not my first language; please pardon any typos I will inevitably make.
Melty Blood and Melty Blood ReAct have a story mode, all about Sion, and with most of our info on alchemy and Atlas. So yes, you missed a lot.
Now on my to-do list.
English is not my first language; please pardon any typos I will inevitably make.
Well, here are my assorted thoughts on the points brought up in this thread.
Too bad that that is not how it works. It is not: "Okay, this is exactly this powerful, so it becomes A-rank". It is: "Okay, this is as powerful as they get, so it is counted as A-rank". A-rank is not some thin line at the end of some spectrum that can be gone over to some unreachable heights. It is literally as powerful as Noble Phantasms get (with the exception of the + that can be added). Only when things become EX, where they simply do not exist on the scale, can they start defeating A-rank stuff. Because it's not about "this is more powerful than that", and it never has been, in Nasuverse.First of all, I find that ranking by alphabet is inferior to ranking by numerals. Besides the fact that letters are naturally limited to no more than 26, a problem rises if you theoretically find something that is not quite an EX-rank effect, but also significantly more powerful than an A-ranking, since there is no letter "higher" than A.
I think you're actually under some sort of misconception what EX stands for. It is not about having a "Wide array of ranks that can be used". That is when we have ranks such as GoB has. Those are used to mark the rank when there are lot of varying things of different ranks that make up the actual Noble Phantasm. Like UBW or GoB. EX is literally "out-of-this-world" and/or "outside-of-scale-of-normality". And before you say that people can easily define what Ea does or somesuch, I'd like to ask you actually define the "Truth" that Ea shows. It is, by nature, undefinable, which is the whole basis for EX-Rank.For example, Inuyasha's sword Tessaiga would hold this rank, since it can absorb and adapt for use the powers of whatever it defeats, potentially becoming infinitely greater.
Unneeded. A-rank already exists. So does EX-rank. Plus, Nasuverse is not DBZ, so these sort of things are ridiculous to even think about.An S rank, which includes all effects that always trump non-S-ranked effects without contest, making exact rankings irrelevent for them. Avalon's ultimate defense and Ea's ultimate attack are obviously the prime examples for this, but here are also the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and wishes granted by the Holy Grail system.
That is not how "+" works.The "+" modifiers can and should remain, since they are useful modifiers for signifying specialties. For example, Excalibur would be 10++ rank; reguler attacks with it will have a rank of 10, but using its sword beam has a ranking of 12.
But they were not Class Skills. They were just normal skills these heroes had, or owned, like the workshops of the magi-heroes. Therefore, Class Skills are something granted afterwards, but on the other hand, they are all formed from the lives of the Heroic Spirits. Even Independent Action and Mad Enhancement take life from the events of the Heroic Spirits' lives. This is the whole reason why, for example, to be summonable for Berserker-Class, you need to have gone mad once in your life.Independent Action and Mad Enhancement are obviously Skills that the Heroic Spirit forming the Servant did not originally have in life. But on the other hand, Item Construction and Territory Creation are Skills that any half-decent Caster was probably capable of in life anyway; maybe some non-Casters such as EMIYA were, too.
Some Servants, like Arturia, had it in her life. Others got weak ones from Grail when they were summoned in the container known as Class (as that is the whole idea of the Classes). The reason why we haven't seen it anywhere else but with Servants is because we haven't seen anyone who has it, simple as that.And what about Magic Resistance? Was this something that was added to them as Servants, or is this something all heroic warriors (and only warriors) of old had in life? If the Grail system added this, how come only Servants displayed this ability so far?
There must be something wrong with your redundancy sense. Just by reading the descriptions one can see they are different.Eye of the Mind (False) and Instinct are very similar in what they do. My redundancy sense is hurting me.
Just combine them into a single Instinct Skill.
Cute. However, nothing of that applies to a real-life battle. It is a moving, waxing, waning entity that is molded by every course of action and event associated with it. It is not something decided by simply the starting factors and the pre-determined events that will happen over the course of the battle. It's situational and it's undeterminable. You can claim all you want that 1% does not exist in battle, but unfortunately, that is not the case with reality. Simply the fact that human mind and willpower exists means that those percents will always be there, no matter how much you claim else.In my opinion, the "as long as the possibility of victory is not zero" thing is a useless oversimplification at best, and batshit crazy at worst. Chance is an illusion created by our inability to comprehend the present or see the future.
When you roll a die, there is always 100% chance that it will stop on any one specific facet, and 0% chance that it will stop on any other, depending on the physical conditions of the roll (the angle of the roll, the force invested, the wind resistance, the landing surface, gravity, etc.), and if you know these conditions ahead of time you can predict or even induce the result - in the same way that a practiced knife thrower is able to assure that the knife will always strike its target blade-first.
You cannot, therefore, change a 1% chance of victory into a greater chance, since it was never a 1%.
It is exactly what it says. Eye of the Mind (True). It is the ability to see the way to that low chance of victory, no matter how small. In other words, it is about understanding the battle and finding a way to win you would not have realized before. Therefore, Eye of the Mind.That being said, in what way does Eye of the Mind "greatly improves the chances of winning"? Doesn't say.
If you ask me, delete this "possibility of victory" nonsense and replace it with the capability to counter the effects of the "Knowledge of Respect and Harmony" Skill (whose name I'm also gonna suggest you replace), and other effects that might hide attacks, such as Invisible Air.
As for the rest of what you say there......Why don't you, at the same time, just advice him to come up with his own things and go with those? It would be certainly easier than complaining about the world that Nasu has created, and then twisting his system and replacing all the parts that didn't fit into your view of "how things should be" (because obviously, that view must be the right one).
Others already talked about this. I don't think I'll have to.High-Speed Divine Words? I say, fold it into the Magecraft Skill which I suggest you will change to "Thaumaturgy".
To be honest, "Heart of Harmony" and "Center of Harmony" sound so cliched it makes me physically hurt. Knowledge of Respect and Harmony is, once again, titled as what it is. Changing it makes little to no sense. Especially if you do it because "some random roleplay did it".I find the name of Knowledge of Respect and Harmony to be inelegent, and suggest you change it. For example, the Fate/Nuovo Guerra roleplay game favors the name "Heart of Harmony". I evolved it further to "Center of Harmony". Feel free to change it to whatever you'd like, or not at all; it's not -such- a big deal.
Oh? Do tells us why. After all, if we need to explain why something is wrong and shit, you too hold that responsibility. In real life, just calling something "junk" rarely works as an excuse.Pioneer of the Stars is junk, and always was junk. Delete that shit.
Even if you do not understand something, you should not call it stupid.Subversive Activities is fucking stupid. Every square inch of it. Drop it like a bad habit.
But seriously speaking, that's just idiotic. Subversive Activities serves a well-defined purpose, especially to the HS associated with it. I don't see why you're so butthurt with it.
Already commented on, but I guess I'll say my piece too. It's a Servant Skill. That means that is has nothing to do with mundane anymore. The question is not of "power" because, once again, this is not DBZ. It is about the Skill itself, and what it means to Servant to have it. Just look at EMIYA.Surgical Procedure should not be a Servant Skill, for the same reason EMIYA doesn't have Culinary Mastery; it's just too mundane.
But that's not what Expert of Many Specializations does. It starts to feel that you do not understand what many of these Skills do.If you definetely, absolutely must give your Servant a Skill with modern medicine, just give him a low rank in Expert of Many Specializations and be done with it.
We are. You're mostly just not listening.So please, look over the changes I've proposed; imagine them implemented in the Nasuverse. Does anything break? If so, please, tell me.
Go read their legends. Should enlighten you.And I've never encountered a shred of information that suggests how Sasaki and Herc got the Skill; please enlighten me.
Nope. They are actually alien concept in you, not truly part of you, if they're artificial. Mahoyo makes this quite clear.But once created, they are still intrinsic qualities in you, even if an artificial one.
No.....No they're really not. Even reading the questionable descriptions in TM-Wiki should be enough to show that. If not, the games themselves are pretty clear about the differences.It's an oversimplification, but they're all "put Prana inside the chamber, pull the spell's specific trigger, boom".
If you think I'm wrong, please show me. Every time I'm persuaded I'm getting closer to the truth, and I like knowing the truth.
In other words, you're twisting the premise of the story because you cannot accept a part of it that exists? Yeeeeah......that's really good starting point.It was certainly stated, but just can't see how it can be possible.
I'm sorry, but I don't have to eat shit to know it tastes like, well, shit.A little yes, I have always disliked people who complain about something without having read the material. Like people who say the twilight books suck without having read them, is it true? Yes. Is their opinion on the matter worth listening to? Not so much. If someone here had taken the time to actually read it properly (not counting each individual skill), found a problem, informed me of it, and tried to make some attempt to fix it or otherwise make it better, that would be one thing, but so far this has honestly been rather childish and greatly disappointing, especially as I put it here to try and make it better.
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Well, the more I read this thread, the more I begin to feel it should be "Bastardized Servant Rankings" instead.
Your deterministic view collapses in the face of modern physics.
I personally felt that there wasn't that much of a problem with ur stats allon, just that some of the numbers were either too low and too high.
After thinking about it more, I do find that surgical procedure is pretty core of a servant. It not only can be a part of a heroes' myth, but it also has applications inside and outside of battle.
Personally, I felt that this "new" subversive activities is a little too strong. I'm not disagreeing with Verg, but I feel it should be nerfed. Saying that it can potentially kill servants without them even getting into a fight sounds too simplistic. A servant shouldn't be killed so easily just because of a personal skill. I feel that even at max rank, it should just be able to debilitate in battle when they get there. Even then, it shouldn't be that huge of a percentage/number. Even a 20% effectiveness reduction is a huge number when we consider a fight between servants. Saying that you can reduce a servant's effectiveness by 60% or kill them doesn't seem to work if someone like Chu Chulainn or Medusa are considered "average servants".
Dear god, this fucking bastard...... Taunts my fucking childhood.
Perhaps, but it is a very situational skill. To activate it you have to already know where the fight is going to happen before hand in order to set the traps, and the higher one's rank in the skills the lower their spiritual status as a hero declines, which, in the case of my SSR here, means that after a certain point the entire third portion of the stating process (The bonus to their stats granted by their legend, allowing humans to have stats above C rank.) will be removed, meaning that while the enemy may be weakened, the servant using this skill will most likely have fairly low stats in general (since not many humans actually get to the absolute limit of our bodies potential many won't even have stats over D rank).
Last edited by Allon Marton; October 7th, 2012 at 11:25 PM.
Subversive activity isn't a skill that by nature is suppose to kill servants. Its more of a skill suited for the assassin or caster classes, basically those which have a disadvantageous fighting other servants and prefer gathering information an taking out masters, or to act vs a wide number of enemies in order to limit the number of combatants, (like vs familiars, or something like Riders noble phantasm that isn't a reality marble, which summons an army), or even to simply limit an opponents capability in a fight due to a pre-prepared area that is difficult to fight in. (This last reason is actually more suited to archers which are less capable in close combat normally so it can level the playing field)
- - - Edit - - -
Also, by lowing the classification as a hero i believe has to do with geographical boosts, so like a famous hero that has this skill will gain less of a boost then a hero with the same amount of fame in the same place due to the one processing Subversive activity being considered less of a hero. By the system at least.
Last edited by Knick; October 7th, 2012 at 11:39 PM.
Hey guys what's going o--
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Not sure anymore...I put up a simple idea...and it some how turned into this...It wasn't like I was forcing, or even asking them to use it, I asked them if they would help me make it better, maybe give me their own interruptions of the skills so I could try and finish off the list faster, and said that they could use it if they wanted. If I wasn't quite so shocked I would be laughing that none of them considered ignoring it and moving on and instead spent 2 days arguing. Not that I don't still find it entertaining, I just can't seem to laugh.
That is a rather disturbing view of the world. You meant to say, that if you were to be invited to eat another cultures food, you would not even try it, just because it looked or smelled odd to you? And you would trust the opinion of someone who did not even try to eat it, just nibbled on it and spat it out without even bothering to taste it?
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So since this has gone so far off the rails anyway, I may as well ask some off topic questions while I have you all here.
Is an A rank in Riding still the requirement for the Rider class?
And can anyone tell me what Pioneer of the stars does? Because some of the servant sheets I have stated out qualify for it, but then I can't really use them in mock battles against other stated servants I made, because I have NO CLUE what it actually does...
How does one get an EX in a parameter?
So fate is an actual concept in nasu? How do they know when they beat fate, for example in the given example how does one know, that those 100 people are fated to die? Do we just have to wait till they die and if they got into the Throne then we know? Is there a faster method of finding out? (If so I don't need all the methods, but 1 or 2 would be nice)
And is there a way for a magic skill to be done the same way Projectiles was? Like we could just have Magic (Alchemy), or Magic (Fire Dragon), in the second example I am using a fairy tail, if your interested in where that came from.
Last edited by Allon Marton; October 8th, 2012 at 12:45 AM.
A lot of that stuff is deliberately ambiguous to leave room for creativity. Hard to nail down a concrete meaning for a lot of them. For instance, I wonder why one skill might be a "personal skill" but not something else. Maybe it just has to be that amazing.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Pioneer of the stars is a weird skill, in the case of the only known person (Drake, Extra Rider) to have it it basically made it so the 'impossible' was actually possible. This more or less gave rider the ability to go against fate in every way make the luck stat EX, something that basically says fate no longer applies to them and less of them having the ability to go against it (At least i think that's what it means). I'm gonna say it now, don't try to rank it there is no real quantitative and qualitative way to grade it since we only have one example, an example that is EX to boot.
Last edited by Knick; October 8th, 2012 at 12:46 AM.
I see, then can you tell me how Drake earned this skill? because from the precious little knowledge I have of his/her legend, I have never heard of him doing anything world changing.
Nasu has an interesting view of the Spanish Armada.
Well, he sailed around the world. That's kind of an impossible feat given the time. Kind of like man going to the moon.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
But I don't think he was even the first to do most of what was in his legend, plus while that may have seemed impossible (Unless I am not wrong and he wasn't the first than it wouldn't be), I don't think that would really change the world, not any more than any other hero at any rate, whatever the name is of that one hero who freed a bunch of slaves would have had more of an effect, since it could be argued he kinda set in motion who whole rights and anti slavery thing that we all love. (Spartacus?...damnit I can't remember)
Last edited by Allon Marton; October 8th, 2012 at 12:57 AM.
Honest Abe. He invented anti-slavery and civil rights.
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