Fate/Stay Night - Prismatic Chaos

[Seika]

Yeah, that's kind-of true, although MoS proves that Shirou sometimes does take the "easy way out".

But no. That's not the easy way out, that's one of the places in the game where he commits to making himself unhappy because it will make more people happy. Honestly, how the hell do you get that Mind of Steel is an 'easy way out'? Putting it off in the vague hope that he could save everyone would be the 'easy way out' because it means he doesn't have to be pained by killing his lover. (That's not what Shirō actually does, mind - he accepts that he's going to be guilty for whatever harm Sakura does, rather than blocking that out).

[Guy]

Yeah, that's kind-of true, although MoS proves that Shirou sometimes does take the "easy way out".

You're entirely right about Shirou's happiness, though, which is why you ended up with a tragedy like HF Normal. Shirou considers his own happiness to be so unimportant that he can't comprehend that others do not feel the same way, and thus he assumes Sakura will be happy without him. Even though Rider specifically tells him "Sakura will not be saved unless you are there".

I'm not sure if I can call the MoS ending "easy", because he did have to either abandon the women he loves, or his life-long dream, sounds very hard to me.

Yay, you've managed to make a decent argument that Shirou would break out Excalibur... against one of the most powerful entities in the entire Nasuverse.

There's a whole flood of people of various power levels that Shirou against whom Shirou would not judge suicide as the best option against, that are not so overwhelmingly powerful that it's the only option. Notably, every single antagonist in F/SN and Tsukihime. Many of which could serve as decent antagonists without being so powerful that Excalibur is the only option.

Suicide is not Shirou's first resort.

My argument was Excalibur is a one hit kill, it can probably one-shot most of the top DAA, Nasu had to nerf Shirou to make the enemies harder to face, or else some enemies would be very anti-climatic.

I know that suicide is not his first resort.

[lhklan]

But no. That's not the easy way out, that's one of the places in the game where he commits to making himself unhappy because it will make more people happy. Honestly, how the hell do you get that Mind of Steel is an 'easy way out'? Putting it off in the vague hope that he could save everyone would be the 'easy way out' because it means he doesn't have to be pained by killing his lover. (That's not what Shirō actually does, mind - he accepts that he's going to be guilty for whatever harm Sakura does, rather than blocking that out).

Seika, you know what's Mike like about Sakura. So for him, abandoning Sakura is the "easy way out". Forgetting that it's a Sadistic Choice: Save the girl, large amount of casualties, or kill the girl, small amount of casualties.

[Mike1984]

But no. That's not the easy way out, that's one of the places in the game where he commits to making himself unhappy because it will make more people happy. Honestly, how the hell do you get that Mind of Steel is an 'easy way out'? Putting it off in the vague hope that he could save everyone would be the 'easy way out' because it means he doesn't have to be pained by killing his lover. (That's not what Shirō actually does, mind - he accepts that he's going to be guilty for whatever harm Sakura does, rather than blocking that out).

Because it involves murdering an innocent person at the first sign of trouble rather than searching for a solution to make everyone happy. He is following what he "wants" at the expense of the life of an innocent person, just because he can't be bothered to look for an alternative path.

[lhklan]

... And the other people weren't innocents? They deserved to be killed? It's that what you're saying?

[Guy]

Because it involves murdering an innocent person at the first sign of trouble rather than searching for a solution to make everyone happy. He is following what he "wants" at the expense of the life of an innocent person, just because he can't be bothered to look for an alternative path.

Making everyone happy is hard.

Imagine one day Shirou is walking thinking "What a great day to have sex- I mean prana recharging.", then suddely he meets someone whose parent is of one of Dark Sakura victims, a cute orphan "Mister do you have a coin? Mother was killed the other day and I'm hungry.", in this case the poor orphan is the one unhappy, even if Sakura was saved, on the other side on MoS Shirou and Rin are unhappy, but that orphan is happy.

In both cases there were unhappiness, none of them are the right choice acourding to what you are saying. (if I got what you tried to explain, haven't slept for 24 hours now, getting kind of stupid here.)

[Seika]

he can't be bothered to look for an alternative path.

You really think that? You really think that someone who is defined by their desire to save people is making a choice on the grounds that he's too lazy to look for a way to do it? Come on, Mike, be serious here.

[lhklan]

Simply put, BOTH sides have good and bad points. It all depends on perspective, really. If you're a Sakura fan, then you would say that saving Sakura was the right thing. But then, if you're one of the survivor, one of people witnessed the horrors and left behind, then you would want her death. (not you Mike)
As for alternative path... Killing her then, which would reduce a large numbers of victims, or look for another way, which would prolong the sufferings?

[Mike1984]

... And the other people weren't innocents? They deserved to be killed? It's that what you're saying?

Point to me the point in the story where HF Shirou killed a single one of those innocents, or even sat by and allowed it to happen....

Of course they're innocents and do not deserve to be killed, but Shirou did not kill them, and nor did Sakura, intentionally.

Making everyone happy is hard.

Exactly. Hence why MoS was the "easy" option....

Imagine one day Shirou is walking thinking "What a great day to have sex- I mean prana recharging.", then suddely he meets someone whose parent is of one of Dark Sakura victims, a cute orphan "Mister do you have a coin? Mother was killed the other day and I'm hungry.", in this case the poor orphan is the one unhappy, even if Sakura was saved, on the other side on MoS Shirou and Rin are unhappy, but that orphan is happy.

Sure, but he is not responsible for that. He did everything he could to stop the shadow and save those people, barring resorting to cold-blooded murder (and, at that point, he didn't know Sakura was the shadow anyway).

In both cases there were unhappiness, none of them are the right choice acourding to what you are saying. (if I got what you tried to explain, haven't slept for 24 hours now, getting kind of stupid here.)

Well, the difference is that HF Shirou tried to make everyone happy. Sure, he failed, but he did try. MoS Shirou just gave up on Sakura despite her being an innocent.

You really think that? You really think that someone who is defined by their desire to save people is making a choice on the grounds that he's too lazy to look for a way to do it? Come on, Mike, be serious here.

He just gave up on her, because that was the easiest way to ensure everyone else would be safe. Just like Kiritsugu always took the easy option. It's not about "laziness", it's about making the choice to go for the easy option that appears to minimise the likely number of deaths (or, even, minimise the maximum number of deaths) rather than going for the ideal solution like Shirou usually does.

Simply put, BOTH sides have good and bad points. It all depends on perspective, really. If you're a Sakura fan, then you would say that saving Sakura was the right thing. But then, if you're one of the survivor, one of people witnessed the horrors and left behind, then you would want her death. (not you Mike)

Why?

She is not responsible for it, anyone who wants her killed for what happened is just outright evil, or utterly twisted by hate and revenge.

As for alternative path... Killing her then, which would reduce a large numbers of victims, or look for another way, which would prolong the sufferings?

But it is not clear at that point that there will even be any victims. Shirou just did not give the poor girl a [i]chance[i].

[lhklan]

Intentionally or not, Sakura killed them. That's all that matters. She killed them, even when they did nothing to her. So to prevent more accidental killing like that, Shirou killed her. Simple.

And if making everyone happy is hard, how the fuck would that be the "easy" option?

She is not responsible, but she IS part of the cause. Those who lost people precious to them will want revenge, will hate her, but are they evil? Or are they just like any normal humans in that scenario? They would ask: Why did she, a part of the cause, is saved, when their father, their mother, their brother, their sister, their son, their daughter, who haven't done anything, is not? What make her so special? Those are the questions the survivors can and will pause. Shirou CANNOT answer those questions.

As for the victims... Are you sure? Are you completely sure that there won't be any victims? You said that AM influenced her, turned her to evil. What's to say the thing won't do so again? He did the logical choice.

[Altima of the Gates]

Simply put, BOTH sides have good and bad points. It all depends on perspective, really. If you're a Sakura fan, then you would say that saving Sakura was the right thing. But then, if you're one of the survivor, one of people witnessed the horrors and left behind, then you would want her death. (not you Mike)
As for alternative path... Killing her then, which would reduce a large numbers of victims, or look for another way, which would prolong the sufferings?

That is actually a very weak argument to make, and really only looks at the situation from one side.
We had multiple people who knew how to fix the problem, two of those people were interested in exacerbating the situation, and one were on the fence, but marginally wanted to help. What resulted would be a clusterfuck based on bad information and tense relationships.

The problem is, logically, killing her doesn't really end the problem with AM, and with Saber gone, we only have two Servants who would want to (or are capable of) destroy the tainted Grail. Ilya likely will continue the ritual no matter what, Archer will have to deal with Rin, and Rider is like "fuck it". Since destroying the Greater Grail/closing the gate would produce the same effect as killing her would.

She is not responsible, but she IS part of the cause. Those who lost people precious to them will want revenge, will hate her, but are they evil? Or are they just like any normal humans in that scenario? They would ask: Why did she, a part of the cause, is saved, when their father, their mother, their brother, their sister, their son, their daughter, who haven't done anything, is not? What make her so special? Those are the questions the survivors can and will pause. Shirou CANNOT answer those questions.

You could honestly say this for the war in general though. Magi selfishly caused harm to the citizens of Fuyuki in the 200 years this war has been going on.
So your question here should be asked for each of the characters in each one of the routes. What makes a wish so special that you would possibly sacrifice our lives for it? Essentially, the people in the know did in fact risk and sacrificed the lives and livelihood of the people of Fuyuki each time this war came to pass, not knowing what type of people would particpate. So not to be rude, but that would be an erroneous question if you did not pose it equally.

[lhklan]

That is actually a very weak argument to make, and really only looks at the situation from one side.
We had multiple people who knew how to fix the problem, two of those people were interested in exacerbating the situation, and one were on the fence, but marginally wanted to help. What resulted would be a clusterfuck based on bad information and tense relationships.

The problem is, logically, killing her doesn't really end the problem with AM, and with Saber gone, we only have two Servants who would want to (or are capable of) destroy the tainted Grail. Ilya likely will continue the ritual no matter what, Archer will have to deal with Rin, and Rider is like "fuck it". Since destroying the Greater Grail/closing the gate would produce the same effect as killing her would.

Which part is seeing from one side?

[Mike1984]

Intentionally or not, Sakura killed them. That's all that matters. She killed them, even when they did nothing to her. So to prevent more accidental killing like that, Shirou killed her. Simple.

Sakura killed who? To Shirou's knowledge, at the time of MoS, Sakura had killed no-one.

And if making everyone happy is hard, how the fuck would that be the "easy" option?

Since when does MoS "make everyone happy"? The easy option is to kill one innocent to make it easier to protect the rest. The hard option is to protect everyone.

She is not responsible, but she IS part of the cause. Those who lost people precious to them will want revenge, will hate her, but are they evil? Or are they just like any normal humans in that scenario? They would ask: Why did she, a part of the cause, is saved, when their father, their mother, their brother, their sister, their son, their daughter, who haven't done anything, is not? What make her so special? Those are the questions the survivors can and will pause. Shirou CANNOT answer those questions.

Wanting revenge on people who are responsible is perfectly reasonable. Wanting revenge on innocent victims just because they are related to what happened is not.

As for the victims... Are you sure? Are you completely sure that there won't be any victims? You said that AM influenced her, turned her to evil. What's to say the thing won't do so again? He did the logical choice.

Erm, what?

[lhklan]

*sigh* I lost. Fine, you win. Whatever. I'm tired.

[Altima of the Gates]

Which part is seeing from one side?

The problem here is that you're separating Sakura fans from other people, as if Sakura fans naturally do not mind that people died, as long as Sakura was safe, which is incorrect. Therefore, you're coming at the question from the standpoint that the whole situation was wrong, as if killing her was the only logical or correct choice, seemingly as if he didn't have the right to think otherwise. This is also incorrect. I'm just analyzing your wording here, your intent aside.

So the argument is only looking from one side, and I posted exactly why the situation was more complex than "Kill her or people die".

[lhklan]

The problem here is that you're separating Sakura fans from other people, as if Sakura fans naturally do not mind that people died, as long as Sakura was safe, which is incorrect. Therefore, you're coming at the question from the standpoint that the whole situation was wrong, as if killing her was the only logical or correct choice, seemingly as if he didn't have the right to think otherwise. This is also incorrect. I'm just analyzing your wording here, your intent aside.

So the argument is only looking from one side, and I posted exactly why the situation was more complex than "Kill her or people die".

Sorry, sorry. It's Mike who gave me that impression. I apologize.
To tell the truth, I'm on the fence about most things. For some reason, whenever a debate start up, I try to think things from both side in the wrong way. *sigh*

[Altima of the Gates]

Don't worry about it. Mike does in fact argue in a way that makes it hard to tell that he actually cared about the victims of the war, so his argument is at times, very skewed toward proving her innocence, rather than providing facts.

[Mike1984]

Sorry, sorry. It's Mike who gave me that impression. I apologize.

How did I give you that impression? I have never said that the deaths of the innocent people is fine, but Shirou made every effort to prevent that.

Don't worry about it. Mike does in fact argue in a way that makes it hard to tell that he actually cared about the victims of the war

When do I ever make such claims?

[YeOfLittleFaith]

Mike, you just made it sound like you don't actually care about the victims.
That's not what Altima said, though. Just that your arguments seem biased towards Sakura.

[Prince Charon]

One of the problems with arguments like this is people attributing player-who-finished-the-game knowledge to characters who did not know it at the time. It is ridiculous to judge Shirou's decisions based on information he did not have when he made them, for example. Characters, and people in general, act on the information they had and believed to be true at the time.