Beast's Lair Integrated Wiki Revisited

[Seika]

Check the first post of the Questions thread. Just me grabbing opinions and miscellaneous information together so I could keep track, which I eventually threw into a publicly-accessible Google Doc.

[aldeayeah]

The Seika doc is great, but only because of Seika. I don't think it would work well with several editors.

The standard wiki has failed us in the past.

The translation archive is the most useful variation IMO. It should be indexed by by source and by topic.

Like, the CM3 entry would link to all the translations whose source is CM3, and the Magecraft entry would link to all the translations whose topic is magecraft.

[Canon]

What aldeayeah said. A single editor, or a small group of editors, would be best IMO. Having a resource site be open and accurate is going to be nigh impossible without somebody checking it full-time anyway.

[Cruor]

IIRC the problem that was brought up was that we wanted a wiki that would be taken more seriously then TM wiki but couldn't figure out who would be editors (moon rune readers? Translators? Mods? wat do in the case of contradicting info?) in such a case. But then we were like oh but what about just putting translated sources in the wiki etc. and then the problem became do we wanna pay $100+ for stuff we could easily find looking elsewhere` which was DP's problem.

Which brings us to the point here in this thread- why pay $100 for a Seika doc wiki if we can just read Seika doc for free. We need to decide what we actually want to do with the wiki or at least find more uses for such a thing whether that means making separate sections for contradicting info (and I mean all of it even if it was said in Tsukikan, CM2, or whatever if it says the opposite in the story or in a different story it goes there and both texts will be posted) or hell adding in sections for ff writers. But yeah, again, we would be approaching TM Wiki territory if we get out of hand.

[LJ3]

Is the type moon wiki truly that bad? Their format looks ok just that they can't seem to edit out fanon from facts?

[terraablaze]

Just pulling from a random article

Harpe (ハルペー, Harupei^?) is the snake hunter's scythe used by Perseus to kill the Gorgon Medusa. It is described as a monster-killing holy sword that isn't actually an outstanding sword by itself. Its true strength is its trait of "Refraction of Longevity", which is a divine ability the nullifies that special abilities of immortals and inflicts wounds that cannot be restored by any methods other than healing in accordance to the natural laws as well as Harpe cannot be blocked by anything, only dodged by pure skill. It is found within Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon during Fate/stay night.

I don't remember the part I bolded at all. Was that an attribute it had that I just didn't notice or forgot? Also lol at a sword that according to it's own article can't be blocked as well as denying the abilities of immortals being anything but outstanding.

Edit: oh this article also for some reason gives what seems to be it's full account of how slaying Medusa went

The mirror shield is a bronze shield polished to bear a mirror-like reflection that projects information from the surrounding environment on its surface so the user can rely on that information to move around without having to move himself away from the mirror. It can also be used as a sort of detection device as it transmits the heartbeats of those in the area. It was unable to reflect Medusa's Mystic Eyes like in the legends, so he instead focused only on the projected information to find her location and avoid having to look upon her.

Did I miss the part where instead of using her mirror image so he could cut her head off without looking at it he turned her to stone with her own reflection?

[food]

They were confusing the Unnamed Scythe Gilgamesh used with Harpe. The Unnamed Scythe was unblockable and drains mana from the target.

[terraablaze]

I figured as much, just wanted to make sure it didn't apply to Harpe as well.

[food]

IIRC the problem that was brought up was that we wanted a wiki that would be taken more seriously then TM wiki but couldn't figure out who would be editors (moon rune readers? Translators? Mods? wat do in the case of contradicting info?) in such a case. But then we were like oh but what about just putting translated sources in the wiki etc. and then the problem became do we wanna pay $100+ for stuff we could easily find looking elsewhere` which was DP's problem.

Which brings us to the point here in this thread- why pay $100 for a Seika doc wiki if we can just read Seika doc for free. We need to decide what we actually want to do with the wiki or at least find more uses for such a thing whether that means making separate sections for contradicting info (and I mean all of it even if it was said in Tsukikan, CM2, or whatever if it says the opposite in the story or in a different story it goes there and both texts will be posted) or hell adding in sections for ff writers. But yeah, again, we would be approaching TM Wiki territory if we get out of hand.

The point is sacrificing some reliability for speed/up-to-date.

Reliability can be further enhanced by making every editor accountable.

A lot of information shows up in General but never makes it into Seika doc or any translation sites.

[Dark Pulse]

Well, the wiki could really go two ways.

The first way is via "VaultWiki." This is the one that would integrate everything, so it's tied to forum accounts and the works. As you can see from these screenshots, though, it looks somewhat like a cross between a wiki and a topic/forum. The downside is the costs - $70 to buy, $30 for support, and another $60 if we want to remove branding from the thing. It also might potentially have issues with vBulletin 5 once that comes out of beta (and really with upgrading it will be an issue for all the little plugins we use.)

The second option is tried-and-true MediaWiki. Most of us know that, it'd be free to run, and so on. The main problem with that is decentralized forum accounts and basically zero integration with the forums. (I could put a link to it in the top as a tab, sure, but after that, it's all separate accounts and so on unless someone wants to code up a plugin that'll integrate MediaWiki logins with forum accounts.)

I'm not sure which of the two are better. One makes integration nice and tight, but costs to buy, costs to upgrade after a given time, and I'm not sure if it'll play nice with vB5 (which I've already taken care of obtaining the license for) unless the authors update it to do so. The other is free to run, well known, and familiar to lots of people, but it has no integration/centralization whatsoever by default - someone would have to make a plugin for the forums and possibly alter MediaWiki to make it so.

Feel free to debate it though. It'll help me, because it'll then be what you guys want.

[BlackField]

While VaultWiki does sound like a bitch, it does seem like the only option. Without the linking of characters between BL and the Wiki, there wouldn't be any accountability and we'd end up with just another TM Wiki(which is the opposite of what I believe we want). At the same time, I do think its unfair to ask the admins to spend a bunch of time and money on something that might have little longevity(or at least that's what I got from the potential problems with vBulletin5).

[Strife ❤️]

I think being linked to forum accounts is best.

[Kelnish]

That is... quite a conundrum. Linking to accounts would be the preference of Kelnishes everywhere, but that sounds like a big ole can of worms. =X

[Mcjon01]

Linking accounts is nice. Ergo, wait until vB5 goes gold, see how everything plays out with compatibility, and then make a decision. Not like the world is going to end without a wiki.

[Dark Pulse]

I did some digging. According to the guy who created it, "vBulletin 5 support is on our to-do list. However, we will probably not have any news regarding this until vBulletin 5 is gold and considered by customers to be suitable for production." Another post said that the earliest version of VaultWiki that would support a vB5 install would be VaultWiki 4, and that they were focusing more on Xenforo/IPB support as opposed to vB5 since they figured vB5 might still be another year or so away before it's gold.

We'd be waiting for vB5 to go gold before doing any sort of changeover anyway, and who knows how long that will take. Then we'll have to wait for vB5 versions of the plugins we use (like rescinding your vote) unless some of the functionality is built into vB5 instead.

So, unless you guys want to wait possibly even longer, or don't mind sticking on vB4 even after vB5 comes out (it's not like we need to change immediately, after all) then either we need something that will refer accounts from the board to MediaWiki and back and then we can do an essentially independent wiki from the board that isn't tied to board versions, or else we'll put down on the current VaultWiki 3 but then may be waiting awhile to go to vB5 as it would be one of several things that I would need to find updated/replacement plugins for.

[food]

Well, you tell us, lol, since the average BL'er is too lazy to Google this.

Are the projected features in VB5 more relevant to this board's daily activity than the Wiki?

If not, then it would be better to stick with VB4 with a built-in Wiki.

[Dark Pulse]

Well, you tell us, lol, since the average BL'er is too lazy to Google this.

Are the projected features in VB5 more relevant to this board's daily activity than the Wiki?

If not, then it would be better to stick with VB4 with a built-in Wiki.

Admins can be lazy with google too, especially this one, considering all the googling he's done over the last few hours to fix a PC he's been working on.

The long and short of it is "no, probably not," but at the same time, as noted, it will cost money to get, more money if we don't want a copyright notice in the footer of every page, and naturally, we will need to pay to upgrade if there is eventually an upgrade (certainly will be by the time they release a vB5 version).

On the other hand, MediaWiki is free, but it will have zip for actual integration besides me providing a tab link for it.

[aldeayeah]

Set up a mediawiki, let only

Darples

admins

register new users, users ask for access vía pm?

[Cruor]

The thing is, we kinda did make a wiki but it died really fast as either no one felt like registering combined with not many people actually knowing about it. So if its on the board itself you probably will notice and occasionally feel like doing something.

- - - Updated - - -

But yeah, lets go back to how we would use the wiki. I still hold my previous sentiments I mentioned. We won't be able to agree on what goes on the pages because of contradicting information. And if we really really want something that is meant to be and updated fuyuki or better TM wiki this kinda would be bad.

If we use it as a translation archive or Seika doc wiki that's kinda dumb yo. We would be paying for something when we could have easily found the stuff in their respective area (admittedly those random food, arai, Mcjon, and mew excerpts they do in the middle of threads are kinda hard to find if you can't remember thing word for word).

[Dark Pulse]

Well, again, to get to that point of the debate, I think we'd need a few "classes" of pages.

• 100% "true" material. Stuff in the games/novels/character materials/etc. or straight from Mushroom's mouth. Stuff that's indisputable (Rin is Class S Zettai Ryouiki, Arcueid is a True Ancestor). Background lore, rules, etc. This is obviously where stuff that food, Mcjon, etc. translate would come in VERY handy. It'd also be more or less a direct replacement for the long-abandoned Fuyuki (indeed, that'd be a good place to start - transferring stuff over from there to here once it's up as Fuyuki is still "somewhat unknown" unless you dig for it).
• Stuff that's almost certainly true, but has never had any official confirmation. (Rin going both ways, for example.)
• Stuff that's pure speculation and debate because it could go either way, with plausible evidence on both sides. (Shiki can kill servants. Discuss.)
• Theorycrafting in general for stuff that really has more than one or two "standout" potential truths. (Why Taiga is so interested in getting Shirou and Sakura together, for example.)

Basically, once we do have a Wiki, I'd like for users to be able to contribute, but at the same time, we do want to avoid edit wars. We don't want back and forth on Sakura or whatever, for example, so there needs to be a page where stuff is 100% straight (and backed up with references if need be from the game or various official materials), one for stuff that's likely true but not confirmed 100% canon, one for things that are ambiguous, and one for literally pure conjecture. Doing that, I think, will help minimize the edit wars, because it keeps the accurate information accurate, and it allows for theories about stuff to be given equal exposure without it spilling into the stuff that's hard canon. Of course, I don't know how easy it would be to set something like that up in VaultWiki... we'll have to see if either it can just be multiple tabs on the same general space (think of how TVTropes has its main articles, and then its other versions as tabs) or if we'd have to do more extensive crosslinking and put stuff in different spaces.

Also, it does mean that I'd like a few users who will patrol the wiki (which may or may not include the current mods depending on how they feel about it/how many people here are insane enough to volunteer to do it) because, of course, that is going to be necessary for when someone becomes stupid or there's an edit war, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.