Fire Emblem

[LegalLoliLover]

I mentioned this before, but Edelgard and Byleth are basically Gilgamesh and Enkidu. Byleth, as a vessel of the gods, even "dies" at the end of CF.

[Lily Emilio]

I mentioned this before, but Edelgard and Byleth are basically Gilgamesh and Enkidu. Byleth, as a vessel of the gods, even "dies" at the end of CF.

Your comparison is only correct if the enemy they're taking down is someone like Duma or Anankos, whose mentality are closer to that of the Mesopotamia gods in TM when they tried to make Gilgamesh. Rhea OTOH only wants to bring mother back, she doesn't even force ppl to follow her religion (case and point Cyril and Shamir) or was the cause of all problems cause by nobles and crests (even Seteth doesn't approve of the Crest wank by humans in Ingrid support and the church's doctrine also against the misuse of such). None of what Rhea did and what Edelgard tries to accomplish are close to be similar to Gil's rebellion from the gods. This is not to mention that Edelgard herself is not a god hater like Gil, she is only against the church leaders (not just Rhea but also the other branches) who use the goddess as reason for their atrocities, similar to what happened IRL. She literally told Rhea in the battle quote of chapter 12 that "I have only made an enemy of the church, not of the faith".

Also Byleth is not Enkidu, his/her mom is. Not only that, Byleth's role after merging with Sothis is literally of the goddess in the mind of people of Fodlan, as shown with multiple post-timeskip supports like with Marianne or Dimitri in Azure Moon. He/she provides support to the people of Fodland in both spiritual way (like Manuela mentioned) and physical way, even after no longer able to use the sword by the end of CF (literally go and wipe out mole people with Emile in his S support till all of them are gone)

So no, none of them are Gilgamesh or Enkidu, in any shape or form.

[LegalLoliLover]

In the shadow library, there are texts of the church suppressing technological advances, such as binoculars and autopsies, because it would make the goddess seem less "mysterious". Also, wasn't there a text in the main library saying something along the lines of [insert crime here] is forbidden, unless done in the name of the goddess? Oh, don't get me wrong. El is a lot more chill than Gilgamesh, in regards to these things. While Sitri is closer to Enkidu, in terms of birth, Byleth is closer to Enkidu, in terms of role, given that his "destiny" was to "punish" the sovereign rebelling against the divine but, in CF, decided to do the opposite, due to the power of friendship, etc. While off-topic, I have to specify that, with the new Cindered Shadows DLC, Byleth and Jeritza didn't quite solo Shambhala. Several others helped, including Balthus (his feats during that battle made famous in a painting called the Avatar of War).

[Lily Emilio]

In the shadow library, there are texts of the church suppressing technological advances, such as binoculars and autopsies, because it would make the goddess seem less "mysterious".

And that is like how many banned? There are also replacements for those in the form of magic. Manuela literally made an autopsy of Jeralt to figure out that his wound was abnormal, all by Faith-type magic. Yes it sucks that some invention were banned after being investigated by Rhea, but that is nothing compare to what the likes of Galileo suffered in real world. Rhea only condemn ppl who is directly against the church due to Nemesis PTSD in the past.

Also, wasn't there a text in the main library saying something along the lines of [insert crime here] is forbidden, unless done in the name of the goddess?

It's "Dare not kill, harm, lie, or steal, unless such acts are committed by the will of the goddess.", and that's why I said "use the goddess as reason for their atrocities", so idk why you just repeat my point here. The line just b4 that one says "Dare not abuse the power gifted to you by the goddess", which is what the nobles DID NOT FOLLOW. They abuse crests and the importance of crests, and this was the main reason Edelgard took action. None of this is the church's fault, just pure human greed. What the church did wrong in this case is turning the blind eye to all of that, most likely becuz Rhea is too busy doing her Kingu stuff as well as that being benefit to her keeping the relevance of her fallen brethren.

If you want parallels that badly, then Edelgard is just like Nobunaga. One of the first move that Nobunaga did in his quest to tear down the old system is targeting Buddhism temples and monks due to them having huge political influences in the Imperial Court, thus being demonized for that. Nobunaga was not a Buddhism hater who seek to destroy Buddhism, he simply did it to prevent religion to interfere with politics.

Byleth is closer to Enkidu, in terms of role, given that his "destiny" was to "punish" the sovereign rebelling against the divine but, in CF, decided to do the opposite, due to the power of friendship, etc.

Nope. Byleth's "destiny" here is to be a vessel for Sothis to be revived, it has nothing to do with punish the rebels. Punishing the rebels of the church is just part of their job as one who works for the church and being a mercenary for years. If Sothis wasn't a good girl, she would took over Byleth's body the moment she remembered her true identity. Instead she decided to trust that Byleth will use her power to carve their own future. Rhea's plan already failed on its own the moment Sothis decided to fuse with Byleth. Byleth's "destiny" already shifted from being the body for Sothis to be the literal new Sothis who get to decide which is right or wrong for the future of humanity, be it with the literal power of god or not.

And no, Byleth acts on friendship in all 4 routes, not just for Edelgard. All 3 lords were their friends. Byleth chose to side with their friends because they're friends, simple as that. Don't act like Byleth only cares for Edelgard in particular.

While off-topic, I have to specify that, with the new Cindered Shadows DLC, Byleth and Jeritza didn't quite solo Shambhala.

Nobody said they solo Shambala. Literally said in CF ending that Edelgard started a war with them right after she took control of the land, even combo with Lysithea if they get together in the end.

[LegalLoliLover]

Comparing El with Nobu is fair, as well, though the Battle of Garreg Mach probably had less non-combatant casualties than the Siege of Mt. Hiei. However, if that's the case, then who's CF Byleth in that comparison? I said before that SS Byleth is Mitsuhide, but that's not relevant here.

Well, in terms of that "destiny" thing, admittedly, it's probably misdirected on this forum. I've just heard way too many filthy dullards call CF "non-canon", given that it's actually a completely unique story, instead of just copypasta from the other routes.

Yes, a CF Shambhala battle would be amazing, given that it is the de facto "tomb" of Nemesis. Like I said, El needs to found her own gold-grasping colonels... Though Anna's paralogue is basically that, but just transporting the goods vs. the actual tomb raiding.

Also, inspecting a wound isn't quite the level of autopsy that the shadow library records were implying. Same field, very different magnitudes.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I won't say CF is non-canon, BUT I will say Verdant Wind is the most complete route IMO, and SS is a VW reskin. In VW, you learn the truth, you fight Nemesis, and all the 3 powers are basically dissolved by one mean or another.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I'm no CF fan, BUT I will also admit the Church played a huge role in creating the fucked up system of today by reinforcing Crest-based hierarchies so as to shield herself and her kin from the shit the Slitherers pulled, basically putting her mom on an unrealistic pedestal and promoting a culture of self-righteousness and xenophobia in Fodlan, and building everything on an ever-growing pillar of lies. Rhea is fundamentally incapable of 100% honesty except when pushed to the limit and confronted with her sandcastle falling apart. That being said, the Slitherers also bear more blame for the actual bad things that Rhea reacted to.

- - - Updated - - -

Yuri Leclerc is Fodlan's Giorno Giovanna, and you bet your ass he has a dream.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, really liked Balthus and his supports with the Alliance nobles, especially Claude.

[Aozaki-desu]

VW is an SS reskin though

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Nah, VW has a more comprehensive explanation of the backstory and has a Lord. Also, considering SS is not one of the advertised routes...

[Aozaki-desu]

Advertised route it may be, the fact remains that VW is an SS reskin.

Whatever pitch there was behind Claude's initial route, it never got made, all we've got is SS copypaste with frienship nonsense sprinkled on top and maybe final bosses swapped around. Its kinda really sad but thats how it is.

[Lily Emilio]

VW to me is the opposite of SS in theme and storytelling. In VW, you try to reunite Fodlan similar to Edelgard (Claude admitted his ambition is similar to her) but without the need of too much bloodshed like Edelgard did. It has a much brighter tone compare to SS. In SS, Byleth lost most of friends. All 3 lords gone, and even Rhea (if you don't S rank her) who everyone of the Church tried to save for 5 years, only to see her go mad and had to be put down. Even the final boss theme of SS is a complete reverse in tone of other boss themes. God Shattering Star is epic, hype and fit the final fight to get rid of the big bad. Funeral of Flowers is sad, grim and fit the final fight that no one who cared about Rhea as well as Rhea herself wanted.

Also, considering SS is not one of the advertised routes...

Actually it's more obvious in the JP name of the game which is fuu-ka-setsu-getsu (Wind, Flower, Snow, Moon) referring to the 4 seasons of the year (the year prior to the timeskip) and the 4 routes split. So in the Eng version you will be led to believe that there is only 3 routes, but in the JP version you will notice something is wrong when the title is 4 seasons. This is not to mention that the legend behind the phrase itself is about 4 person bearing the name of each with different ideals. And it shows by how in all routes other than SS the King of new Fodlan is the respective lord of that route, while in SS Byleth is the lord.

[asterism42]

Aaaaactually, Byleth is made the king of unified Fodlan in VW too; Claude fucks off to Almyra

[Lily Emilio]

Aaaaactually, Byleth is made the king of unified Fodlan in VW too; Claude fucks off to Almyra

Yes, however Byleth's role as the ruler in VW is not the same as in SS. In the end it's still the world shaped in Claude's vision in VW, much more open and progressive compare to SS. Meanwhile in SS, Byleth is given the choice of what to do and what direction to go next, regardless of Rhea's survival. SS is the only route where the future of Fodlan will be based on Byleth's view and not of the 3 lords, be it influenced by the church more than any other routes. That's why I said Byleth is the lord, not ruler, referring to their role in the route.

[Aozaki-desu]

VW to me is the opposite of SS in theme and storytelling. In VW, you try to reunite Fodlan similar to Edelgard (Claude admitted his ambition is similar to her) but without the need of too much bloodshed like Edelgard did. It has a much brighter tone compare to SS.

There is fuck all in VW in terms of reunification. Empire is still dissolved, Kingdom is still destroyed, UKoF is still established under Archbishop and her Majesty The Queen Second Coming of Sothis.
Its brighter tone comes at a cost of being so out-of-tune with the rest of the game it detracts from the route rather than adds to it. All the friendship speeches and Claude's "schemer" persona amount to nothing, and Nemesis fight, while well-executed, seems like it was placed there to salvage the route.

The only story-related difference between VW and SS is Byleth and Claude being BFFs which does lead to a different era of Fodlan making new connections and new beginnings with outside places starting with Almyra, but frankly, with nothing else backing it up, it just comes off as a mandatory part of "good ending" rather than logical conclusion of its own theme - because, since there is no golder route, every lord gets good ending. There is also no reason that cant happen in SS, its just that its explicit in VW because its about the only thing VW has going for it.

The meat of the route is just not there.

WV would be a lot better if Claude was more confrontational, actually did something that would lead to people uniting, like maybe getting through to Dimitri, helping him save the kingdom and then going unified front against Edelgard - and then going against mistrustful Rhea and removing her from power in order to usher in a new era. But none of that ever happens.
Similarly, it would make much more sense for Byleth to put Nemesis down in her own route because it would also be very symbolic. No matter how i think about it, Rhea should've been final boss of VW and Nemesis should've been final boss of the Church.

[Lily Emilio]

There is fuck all in VW in terms of reunification. Empire is still dissolved, Kingdom is still destroyed, UKoF is still established under Archbishop and her Majesty The Queen Second Coming of Sothis.

Rhea is implied to be dead. The ending doesn't even mention her as oppose to AM/SS where they actually mentions that she goes back to Zanado with Catherine. Seteth is the new authority of the church who will welcome the changes that Claude preaches, accepting different faiths, this is not in SS where he only restores the church's power (or even becomes the prime minister in S support). And in Claude S-support Byleth doesn't even want to stay in the church, but Claude was the one who insisted that Byleth should stay and act as the spiritual figure for the people post-war cuz they need something to believe in. Byleth is even sad about Claude using them like that. The importance of the church is also vastly inferior in VW compare to SS where it becomes stronger than ever.

Its brighter tone comes at a cost of being so out-of-tune with the rest of the game it detracts from the route rather than adds to it. All the friendship speeches and Claude's "schemer" persona amount to nothing, and Nemesis fight, while well-executed, seems like it was placed there to salvage the route.

This is a matter of taste, yes. I view it as a more neutral route, with the leader trying to stay away from the 3 main factions at war aka church, kingdom, empire. It does allow for a broader viewpoint, eventually leading to the uncover of the truth of the crests and the history of dragon people vs mole people (granted this could've been in SS too so yeah idk why it couldn't be there).

WV would be a lot better if Claude was more confrontational, actually did something that would lead to people uniting, like maybe getting through to Dimitri, helping him save the kingdom and then going unified front against Edelgard - and then going against mistrustful Rhea and removing her from power in order to usher in a new era. But none of that ever happens.

This I agree. But it's just how Claude is. He's not as aggressive or savage compare to mr.killeverylastoneofthem and mrs.reachformyhand. A man who only tried to keep peace in his own territory for 5 years after the fall of the monastery wouldn't make any active move. Even the act of gathering an army against Edelgard was done by the name of the church with Byleth being used as the figurehead. This is also evident by the fact that Byleth in SS was the one who came up with all of what was Claude's schemes in VW. Basically in VW, Byleth is a piece in Claude's grand plan, while in SS Byleth acted on their own will.

Similarly, it would make much more sense for Byleth to put Nemesis down in her own route because it would also be very symbolic. No matter how i think about it, Rhea should've been final boss of VW and Nemesis should've been final boss of the Church.

I can see that, as I used Sothis regalia in that Nemesis fight and ended him with Sublime Heaven. If you put it that way, all of the lore from crests to Byleth's mom could be all explained in SS and finish with Nemesis, tho that would require the changing of Claude's personality like you said, so idk if it would turn out better or not.

[Aozaki-desu]

It does allow for a broader viewpoint, eventually leading to the uncover of the truth of the crests and the history of dragon people vs mole people (granted this could've been in SS too so yeah idk why it couldn't be there).

Thats the thing, Claude's viewpoint is kinda shallow and unconvincing, and all crest stuff and Nabatean stuff is just Church stuff that is misplaced in VW to, again, salvage it
when he goes "yknow if Almyra and Fodlan could talk it out for the betterment of both" its really bad because Almyra are the agressors while Hilda, Claude's right hand man, i mean woman, and her brother are literal motherfucking protectors of the realm
since there is no actual unification going on we never get even a glimpse of Dimitri or Edelgard, so there isnt really any connection with them in terms of understanding and finding better way

on top of that Claude not having do-or-die level of motivation in retrospect also detracts from VW because other routes are just so much more involved and frankly better written
it feels shallow and frankly if feels more like infodump for the people who didnt get how things work from playing first 2 routes

because tbh the game was designed to play Eagles Lions Deer in that sequence and it kinda suffers from the freedom of choice in the beginning
it would be probably better if route choice was locked for at least first game-cycle completion

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I frankly disagree. Claude's inquisitiveness, but non-confrontational attitude is what helps him uncover the truth and not get too caught up in the war. Besides, Edelgard and Dimitri's VERY confrontational attitudes are not very conducive for peace or unity, and yeah, maybe Byleth should have fought Nemesis in their own route, BUT I feel the truth was not Byleth's priority, and considering how Rhea-centric the route is, having berserk her as the final boss is poetic and sensible.

Moreover, I find Claude's view very convincing because honestly, the conflict between Fodlan and Almyra is partially driven by a lack of knowledge from both sides about each other and the negative stereotypes that result from that lack of knowledge, and connecting them further would definitely help.

Finally, I think VW is the best precisely because of the lack of grimdark and because Claude is able to see past the chain of grudges that holds everyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

In any case, I'm not delusional enough to think I'm changing anyone's mind.

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. Rhea as the final boss for VW is nonsensical because of how the route nor Claude exactly cares about the Church all that much. He isn't dogmatically opposed to the Church at all, and is perfectly willing to work with Rhea as long as she spills the beans. Moreover, Lily Emilio already said the rest. All the endings basically show the Church receding in prominence in VW.

[Bloble]

VW has several cutscenes that are blatantly supposed to be for SS but got lazily copypasted in, like the whole scene after you beat Edelgard which makes no sense in the context of VW.

That said, it's still my favourite route. And also the closest in tone to classical fire emblem.

[LegalLoliLover]

Actually, unlike the other routes, I can't really think of a thematically "perfect" final boss for VW. On the other hand, Nemesis would have been OK for any route, except AM. CF was a lot more about putting down the past than VW was. And yes, I'm still obsessed with El meeting her "hero" and robbing his "tomb". And given SS is the Church route, putting down the original "blasphemer" (at least, the first one in the church stories) would have been appropriate, as well.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Nemesis is thematically perfect for VW because he functions as a historical bookend, a symbol of the old Fodlan finally being laid to rest and a new Fodlan based on truth as opposed to lies rising on the horizon. Moreover, the circumstances behind his defeat, namely Byleth and Claude working together to take him down, encapsulate the lessons the cast has learned throughout the entire route of mutual trust and teamwork.

- - - Updated - - -

VW has several cutscenes that are blatantly supposed to be for SS but got lazily copypasted in, like the whole scene after you beat Edelgard which makes no sense in the context of VW.

That said, it's still my favourite route. And also the closest in tone to classical fire emblem.

I'll admit the cutscene after defeating Edelgard makes more sense in Silver Snow. That being said, I'd say the rest of the cutscenes are the other way round.

[LegalLoliLover]

About that cutscene, I always found it weird that that cutscene will play no matter who actually defeats Edelgard, while the CF cutscene of Edelgard killing Dimitri only plays when Edelgard actually defeats Dimitri.