This is a fair point.
This is a fair point.
Originally Posted by Deathhappens
The funniest part of F!Byleth to me is that her 'bad' design is a thousand times more popular than M!Byleth's 'good' one.
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And Fire Emblem isn't a JRPG in the first place. Protagonists were never involved in supports that deeply until the wish fulfillment and self-insertion started.
By protagonists, do you mean Avatars? Also, I don't think having Avatars is really a bad thing, or at least, the concept itself isn't bad in and of itself for a Fire Emblem game. The execution has been mixed, but I don't hate the feature.
Also, you're delusional if you think Fire Emblem isn't a JRPG. It is one of the foundational JRPGs.
Avatars are bad in Fire Emblem. They have detracted from the story in every single instance they have appeared. The least offensive one was Robin (or arguably Mark from FE7) and even that wasn't particularly good.
You'll find that Fire Emblem isn't classified as a JRPG. The term used in Japan is SRPG, or simulation RPG. It has its roots in Famicom Wars, not Final Fantasy. Fire Emblem is closer to turn-based tactics than anything, even with modern entries shifting towards smaller casts. The closest equivalent to FE overseas wouldn't be Mass Effect; it'd be XCOM.
I didn't realize SRPGs weren't JRPGs. They all have similar plot and character beats.
Avatars v bad but being a wandering tactician Lyn rescued in Blazing Sword was good
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
Also, again, I'm more neutral towards Avatars and think they can be done well given the right writing. They could be an interesting exploration of the setting and the genre.
I think Byleth was on the right track, but they just didn't have enough agency.
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Or at least, not enough was done to explore their unique state and lack of agency.
Mark was the least bad, yeah.
Fire Emblem is never going to have player agency the same way any western RPG does. Avatars make sense in RPGs because often their blank slate nature accommodates choices the player makes and outcomes they face. Avatars don't add anything to Fire Emblem. Your choices do not matter in Fire Emblem, outside of picking between two units or two directions to go on a minor route split for gameplay purposes. FE is always a linear story that needs to be carried by its characters. An avatar by necessity cannot, as a character, properly carry a story. You need someone with an actual personality, preferably one that isn't bland and milquetoast.
Just look at FE4 and FE5. Those games are made by their protagonists. Neither of them would ever work if they'd had their main characters replaced by avatars. Or hell, look at FE9. Sure, Ike is a viewpoint character that players are meant to identify with in some ways, but he is by no means an avatar. He does things no avatar could ever do and that's why he's fondly remembered years later.
And no, SRPGs are not JRPGs. Fire Emblem's stories were inspired by the Heroic Legend of Arslan and medieval history and sagas, not pen and paper tabletop games or Wizardry.
Yet, they are also responsible for the series continuing and not being shelved.
Binged All Of Gundam In 4 Years, 1 Week and All I Got Was This Stupid Mask
FF XIV: Walked to the End
Started Legend of the Galactic Heroes (14/07/23), pray for me.
An of-repeated and baseless claim. Fire Emblem was saved by timely releases on a flourishing console combined with good advertising, not waifus and avatars.
Or would you say Kris from FE12, the first real avatar the series had, saved the game from being one of the worst-selling in the franchise? (We're not counting Mark, no one cared about Mark.)
Last edited by Bloble; January 13th, 2022 at 11:03 PM.
The Avatar customization and dating sim aspects absolutely played a part.
Also, I get your point about Fire Emblem games being linear stories carried by their characters, and I like that, but I do think an Avatar can work in that setting, at least somewhat. Definitely not as a true self-insert, but I think they can work as a character if their customization and other shit is in fact used as an important plot point or a huge part of their character.
The dating sim stuff did play some part, but its impact is vastly overstated.
FE12, Awakening's direct predecessor, had nearly all the features Awakening did besides child units. Avatars, customization, supporting everyone, casual mode, etc. It sold awfully and nearly killed Fire Emblem... because it released on the nearly dead DS after the 3DS was already out, and then never got an overseas release because the system was already on its last legs.
Also because it was bad, but that's neither here or there. Not like Awakening has very good gameplay either.
FE12 didn't suck because of Avatars, if that's what you're implying. It sucked for a whole host of reasons, and Kris would probably have only been a minor one at best.
Also, hot take, but Awakening's gameplay, while very easy, was fun, and that's the important part. In addition, it's story wasn't actually half bad, just kinda forgettable.
It's entirely possible, but we'll never know how the non-waifu Awakening would be received.
The fact remains, it was on the chopping block, then Awakening came out and did gangbusters. When you have a downward trend, and something reverses it, management tends to go all in on those changes. And it's only gotten better since. Even with Fates being a bad one.
It actually reminds me of what's going on in the Halloween movies right now. A bunch of movies slowly doing worse and worse until a new one comes along and does great and they go all in on it for the future. It even has the Fates analogue where apparently Halloween Kills is terrible, but still made a bunch of money.
Binged All Of Gundam In 4 Years, 1 Week and All I Got Was This Stupid Mask
FF XIV: Walked to the End
Started Legend of the Galactic Heroes (14/07/23), pray for me.
Kris actually did make FE12's story suck a lot more. How do I know that? Because I've played FE3, which FE12 is ostensibly a remake of, and its story is just straight up better.
I won't go so far as to say Awakening's gameplay was straight up bad. It just wasn't anything to write home about when considering the broader scope of the series.
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Also, on an unrelated note, I have a fix to the Byleth clothing issue: make M!Byleth skimpier. Tear off his sleeves and like half his shirt or something. He's a mercenary. Have you seen FE Mercenaries? Half of them go completely shirtless. That way he'll match F!Byleth.
Actually FE12 is good
I'm sad to say you got filtered
Show me your lunatic reverse no deaths ironman LTC with level 20 Bantu or you're a casual scrub
Was FE3 even that good to begin with? I'll be honest, I could probably not touch any of those Famicom Fire Emblems except for Geneology because of how many of the later features of the GBA games weren't there. That, and how many characters were actually fleshed out characters in that game? I call BS on FE3 being leagues better than FE12.
Honestly this just reminds me of my actual greatest criticism of modern day fire emblem games.
With everyone needing to be romanceable, we don't get to have """ugly""" characters anymore, like giga old men or Based Chad Gonzalez, because everyone needs to be generally appealing. Actual irreversible damage done to the series.
I will never be able to romance and breed with a Bantu-like in a modern game, and that's really unfortunate.
thats because everyone who says that is in denial
they should give up and embrace the frog
A new FGO NP table
funny vamp ends 7 years of gacha torture
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