You're welcome, and I do like that idea. One question--would he be able to use it against Heracles who has God Hand permanently activated. 300 kills in one shot, lol.
You're welcome, and I do like that idea. One question--would he be able to use it against Heracles who has God Hand permanently activated. 300 kills in one shot, lol.
I don't think it works that way. It's not 300 spear thrusts simaltaneously, but rather the force of 300 spear thrusts combined into one strike (just as the shield combines the defensive power of 300 shields braced by 300 Spartans). As long as the spear thrust is A Rank it should take at least one life, but how many lives it actually takes depends on it's damage output in terms of numbers.Originally Posted by Junky
That said, while it is primarily used as a counter attack it seems very powerful to me. Remember, the attacker gets auto-stunned as his/her attack get's pushed back, even if they attacked at range, which leaves them wide open for the kill-shot unless they have an auto-defense. That's actually pretty damn haxxed. He'll kill anyone who isn't overwhelmingly stronger than him. It's only real weakness is that anything above B Rank will pulverize him (unless the Master is smart and a powerful magus and expends a Command Spell to back him up). Also, theoretically anyway, any attack that is Anti-Army should just plow through it regardless of Rank since it's just him borrowing the strength of a 'mere' 300 soldiers (a rather small 'army').
All in all, I'd say he's very well-balanced, though, as MssrNeko says, he'd be outclassed by the big guns unless he uses Phalanx on one of their weaker attacks to stun and kill them before they get serious (and even then he's screwed if another enemy shows up).
Edit: Also, I think his AGI should be a little lower even though he's a Lancer. He doesn't strike me as very dextrous or agile given his style is "block with the big shield and then counter" instead of dodging or deflecting strikes with his own spear as previous Lancers have done.
Rank A AGI is the base for Lancer though.
Arihiko's trump card must be amazing.
Pretty sure that there are no "base" stats. Lancer's just happen to have high AGI and are known for it, but it is not a necessity.
In the same way Iskander can have D AGI (extremely low for Rider, I think) and Vlad in Extra had D rank AGI as well (as a Lancer), if I recall correctly.
E AGI lol
[18:30] RacingeR: Max S.Link with hero is when you promise your daughter to him
[18:31] RacingeR: Which means Airen and me are the only ones that maxed it (I promised Spin to him, and Spin is my daughter)
[18:32] hero: oh shit
[18:32] hero: spincess get
[18:32] hero: suck it fuckers
Hm, I thought I read about base stats somewhere, and that stats can be changed based on the aptitude of the Master. Also, something about Rin's Saber being the true form of Saber because she's an optimal Master, and Kiritsugu's Saber receiving some of his attributes because he is not the best Master.
Edit: The base stats thing was from the Japanese wiki--Click here! It's un-sourced, so it may be conjecture.
Edit 2:
Last edited by Junky; March 12th, 2012 at 07:52 PM.
Yeah, Rin's form of "Arturia" is the closest to her actual live abilities (or something like that), but it is hardly that "every Saber has this level stats". The power of the Master can greatly influence the abilities of the Servant, but you will not make "dragon-reactor Saber level" Servant out of an "Avenger" no matter how good your "Master aptitude" is.
Compare Archer and Gil, Iskander and Medusa in stats for example. Or Gilles and Medea. It is obvious that stats are quite heavily determined by the actual heroic spirit you summon, rather then any preset "Class stats".
It appears I didn't explain myself correctly. I agree with you completely with regards with different Servants having different stats. When I said base stats, it was the minimum requirements to be summoned in that class/vessel.
But as I said, unless someone knows the source of that base stat information from the Japanese wiki, it might as well be considered conjecture.
One thing I've learned about Extra is that it does have a pretty fair number of statistical/categorical anomalies that make it hard to rely on when making non-AU Servants though. Like some people it can accept as a Servant could never be called as one in a 'normal' Grail War outside of the Extra AU.
The Lancers don't all have Battle Continuation (which is their mandatory Class Skill) and some Servants don't formally fit the stat requirements you'd expect, like Vlad vastly falling short of the high agility that's a requirement for the Lancer card. But a lot of that is hand-waived as not being a Fuyuki Grail War and the Moon Cell having its own set of rules which are mostly, but not completely, identical to the Greater Grail's.
But that being said, I feel like the stats are more of a 'template' that you don't often perfectly meet because of fame, aptitude of the Master, etc. It's not like Shirou degrading her stats stopped Arturia from being summoned to the Saber card.
Are you referring to this by any chance?
I think those are just average values you can expect a traditional member of that class to posses.Basic ability by class
Saber
STR A CON B AGI B MGI C LCK D
Lancer
STR B CON C AGI A MGI D LCK E
Archer
STR C CON C AGI C MGI E LCK E
Rider
STR D CON D AGI B MGI C LCK E
Assassin
STR D CON D AGI B MGI E LCK B
Berserker
STR C CON D AGI D MGI E LCK E
Caster
STR E CON E AGI C MGI A LCK B
Diarmuid did not have Battle Continuation. And he was as "Lancer" as you can basically get. I am pretty sure the only class skill for Lancers is Magic Resistance. And BC was a Personal Skill of Cu. Besides, as said, Iskander AGI is definitely not "standard" for Riders. Same for Gilles running around with his C MGI.The Lancers don't all have Battle Continuation (which is their mandatory Class Skill) and some Servants don't formally fit the stat requirements you'd expect, like Vlad vastly falling short of the high agility that's a requirement for the Lancer card. But a lot of that is hand-waived as not being a Fuyuki Grail War and the Moon Cell having its own set of rules which are mostly, but not completely, identical to the Greater Grail's.
Agreed. I assumed that it was for the Grail to categorize the Heroic Spirit when summoning it as a Servant, however. Not the stats it actually would have.
Yes, those. So, they are average values? I need to work on my Japanese lol. That's what you get for just assuming after cursory examination.
Mmm, Magic Resistance is what I meant, but I was thinking about an earlier conversation where I wondered if BC was one and derped as I typed.Sorry about that. Yeah, I remember asking because Vlad didn't have Magic Resistance either (he had Protection of the Faith instead) but both he and Cuchulainn had BC so I was confused at the time.
...If that's what you can 'expect' them to possess, Berserker has some pretty awful stats though. And this is the class where the only real claim to fame is "you lose sanity but stat buff".
"AND THAT MEANT THE ROCK, THE CRAPPY AWFUL ROCK HERE WAS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, THE CONTINUA, THE WHOLE REALITY!"
-Iain M. Banks, Use of Weapons
That fits with the idea of the Berserker class to summon a weak Servant and buff them up. Those stats over there probably don't have Mad Enhancement, anyways.
The stats are those of the Servant vessel itself. The Berserker vessel is kinda crappy, as you can see, and you tend to summon shitty Servants into it. Hence you really need that stat boost from ME.
It essentially goes Vessel x Heroic Spirit x Master/Fame factors = Servant Stats.
The source, by the way, was the February 2004 Techigan issue. Scan:
Beast's Lair: Useful Notes
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Updated 01/01/15
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Eh, if the vessel really plays a decent role in the power of the Servant, then I don't really see why you'd ever want the Berserker class container- it's a pretty bad vessel which would make you Servant a lot weaker, and even with Mad Enhancement, you probably only manage to break even, except you lost sanity. Don't see why anyone would ever summon a Berserker class Servant if the container would gimp them that much.
Just my thoughts.
One of the big factors seems to be the control you get. Your Berserker shouldn't have a mind of his/her own, so betrayal is unlikely (and, magi being as paranoid as they are, I'm sure that's a concern).
Besides, if we assume B-rank Mad Enhancement, you've got a vessel which is the third-best, stats-wise, and breathing down the neck of second-best. A Master might even hope for A-rank ME, whatever benefit that confers.
Look at the stat breakdown:
When E=10, D=20 etc., the numerical values are these:
Berserker:90 (140 with B-rank ME)
Caster:140
Assassin:130
Rider:120
Archer: 110
Lancer:150
Saber:180
In ascending order, that's
'Sane' Berserker:90
Archer: 110
Rider:120
Assassin:130
Caster:140
B-rank Mad Enhanced Berserker:140
Lancer:150
Saber:180
Beast's Lair: Useful Notes
(Lightweight | PDF)
Updated 01/01/15
If posts are off-topic, trolling, terrible or offensive, please allow me to do my job. Reporting keeps your forum healthy.
Seika moderates: modly clarifications, explanations, Q&A, and the British conspiracy to de-codify BL's constitution.
Democracy on Beast's Lair
There's the constant prana cost from maintaining mad enhancement(which apparently kills most of Berserker's masters, so it's definitely not a negligible factor), and then there are the other, non-stat bonuses the other classes give- Magic Resistance, Riding, Independent Action, Territory Creation, Item Creation, Presence Concealment- which a Berserker will not have (in most cases) and activating Mad Enhancement may seal some skills, like it sealed Bravery for Herc.
Honestly, seems like a pretty shitty deal.
Although the loyalty is pretty cool.
Admittedly it's apparently ridiculously efficient if you summon a Heroic Spirit who's famous and powerful into that class, because they get a huge benefit from the Enhancement for very little personal reduction of power. Which is also why I'm pretty sure that source or no source, vessels can't be more than 'guidelines' for the Servant when you factor in everything else- canonical Berserkers are pretty scary-powerful.
Also, I thought ME wasn't maintained via prana, it just meant the Servant wasn't intelligent enough to know how much prana to take from their Master so they end up siphoning far more than they need to actually fight or survive when they're sufficiently Mad Enhanced.
"AND THAT MEANT THE ROCK, THE CRAPPY AWFUL ROCK HERE WAS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, THE CONTINUA, THE WHOLE REALITY!"
-Iain M. Banks, Use of Weapons
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