Fate/strange fake (Free-Range Spoilers)

[AAM1232]

What facts? You haven't stated shit beyond it sounds better. So no, that isn't facts and logic, it's just emotion.

[Cylascream]

I don't think there's any reason to continue the discussion while the TLer himself ended the point of the discussion.

[RCM9698]

What facts? You haven't stated shit beyond it sounds better. So no, that isn't facts and logic, it's just emotion.

You haven't stated any facts and are just relying on emotion. To recap:

They for a known singular person isn't universially accepted (as is the very concept of genderless people for that matter). Universially accepted options are superior to those that aren't

(Even if it was, Enkidu isn't a person to begin with, so "they" is not even better than whatever else Enkidu chooses. Which given his myth and choice of Japanese pronoun would be him)

Them/they is pretty much never used, read/watch pretty much any popular franchise where a similar situation with for example an AI appears. Its either it or he/she

You failed to refute any of these and just kept whining that "some people use it and you feel it is better", without any fact or to back up why.

[Comun]

One thing I feel like both sides of the discussion are missing: Since there's no universally accepted answer (and when it comes to language, there never is when you start digging deep enough), both you are only presenting opinions, no matter how substantiated you make them. The dictionary entries and peer-reviewed papers you link can very well propose opposing ideas because language is about as far from uniform as it can be. Any mentions of "facts and logic" falls under the fallacy of "my common sense is the only form of common sense".

[You]

https://acurzan.english.lsa.umich.edu/

[Seika]

RCM, you are displaying a lack of consideration for both linguistic science and for the feelings of your fellow human beings. I strongly urge you to be more empathetic, for your own sake if nothing else.

To discuss the translation of Enkidu's pronouns is acceptable: you have been extending well beyond this into taking swipes at people who don't gender themselves in a way you consider satisfactory, in the process following painfully flawed lines of argument. ("Universally accepted" ways to use pronouns is arrant nonsense beyond even normal prescriptivism).

In any case, this argument has clearly ceased to be productive. Until OtherSideOfSky raises the topic again, I would like everyone to refrain from this topic of discussion. (Should it come up, I will expect a more considerate approach, on pain of something more severe than simply a talking-to).

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Back on topic, but I honestly am struggling to wrap my head around the difference between Ishtar and the Princesses. Are the latter humans made into otherworldly beauty, while the former is otherworldly beauty adapted to Earth, or is something else going on?

[Rafflesiac]

The princesses are the result of humans striving toward their perception of perfection. Ishtar is perfect, not by human definition, but by mere virtue of her existence.

[OverMaster]

All I'm going to say is that the English language really needs a new pronoun for neither male nor female personalities, because 'it' (things) and 'they' (plural, very prone to confusions) just ain't cutting it.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Some people have tried, and others, particularly gender fluid people, have fashioned their own.

[asterism42]

Took me a while to realize that by 'Princesses' you meant the Iselmas

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Some people have tried, and others, particularly gender fluid people, have fashioned their own.

While I am admittedly viewing them from the outside, such neological pronouns look really weird and clunky, and 'they' serves that purpose perfectly fine.

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Also I do actually know some fluid/nonbinary people who feel the same way and just use 'they' for simplicity's sake.

[You]

Back on topic, but I honestly am struggling to wrap my head around the difference between Ishtar and the Princesses. Are the latter humans made into otherworldly beauty, while the former is otherworldly beauty adapted to Earth, or is something else going on?

The first thing to consider is that Sanda and Narita are Good Friends who seem to be having conversations with their Fate works. E.g. random cameo loli witch in case files anime turns about to be Haruri's sensei.

"Now, my lady, to which of these beauties were you referring?" Raising his cigar, my brother spoke up again.

His eyes were locked directly on me.

"I wonder."

"I think you aren't referring to something like passing fashions, or beauty as revealed by mathematics. No, you are probably talking about something else - something like, if a human being could personify beauty. Am I right?"

My brother struck right to the heart of the matter.

Maybe I gave out a few too many hints.

"Was that question too easy?" I replied with a chuckle, sticking my tongue out at him.

In this world, legends of beautiful women were nothing if not plentiful.

Cleopatra.

Yang Guifei.

Helen of Troy.

Even putting aside the Three Beauties of History, this definition of beauty was a well-worn one.

Depending on the time or era, there would always be people who found long necks, or long toes, or long hair to be beautiful. That was no doubt the 'fashion' my brother was talking about earlier. Not just what was popular at any given time, but also at any given place. That was the definition my brother had given 'fashion.'

But...what if there was something that could exist entirely independent from that?

Would True Magic be able to reach a place like that?

As the smoke from his cigar entwined itself around his long black hair, my brother quietly spoke again.

"...I see. That social gathering was about the reveal of the Gold and Silver Princesses, wasn't it?"

In Waver's lecture Sanda describes 2 different types of beauty, beauty in math, beauty as fashion and defines beauty as fashion what we mean as human beauty. The Iselma attempt to go beyond both to create something beyond fashion and reach「」.

If the Iselma princesses were the result of generations of mages studying to approach the Root from the perspective of “beauty” and achieving a height at which their forms seemed to reflect the universe itself, then what this goddess had ought to be described as a completely different category that just happened to also use the word “beauty.”
The goal of the Iselma family’s “beauty” was ultimately a method to reach the Root. If they ever did reach it, it would be a domain worthy of the name “otherworldly beauty.”
Ironically, what the goddess possessed was the opposite—otherworldly “beauty” befitting of the heavens applied to earthly forms. You could call it the end goal of “beauty” as it is meant near the human sphere. The kind of “finished product” that fell from an unreachable height and painted over its surroundings with itself.
The self-proclaimed goddess before her eyes was like if the golden ratio defined everything it wore as fashionable and fixed that conception on its surroundings. Her way of being broke the rules.
If the human sense of beauty is a type of crisis avoidance or pleasure mechanism developed for survival, then her beauty was the opposite. Her beauty was something that gave to humans.
The goddess was aware that she possessed perfect beauty and that she was the standard of beauty. As a result, she must regard beauty as something that inevitably belonged with her and the act of studying herself as totally alien.

Conversely, Narita uses Ishtar's appearance to explore the idea of something that is infinitely fashionable, the "other" type of beauty that is "near the human sphere."
So where the Iselma aim for beauty that is beyond fashion, reaching into 「」, Ishtar is the standard of beauty no matter what, i.e. infinitely fashionable, so her beauty will never go out of fashion. Yet it is not beauty reaching「」.
This interplay between the 「」 vs infinity and its difference taken from

Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.

Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.

However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.

If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything.

…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself.

I don't know if it was this intentional but I remember thinking it was clever when this volume came out.
tl;dr
Ishtar = EX rank beauty
Iselma = 「」

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Huh. Food for thought.

[Zork Knight]

Is " " supposed to feel in the space for something we can't conceive

[Comun]

No, the blank is supposed to be a very literal void. The same void used describe Shiki's (and implicitly Musashi's) connections with the Root.

[mami-kouga]

Ah a new translation. And Enkidu pronoun discourse (well, go with whatever makes the translation easier for you, I'll probably stick to my own thing regardless honestly).

As for the story itself, Ishtar is surprisingly kind to Haruri, I guess cause she kind of views her akin to a pet. Though I do wonder what she would have done if had called her by the wrong name...

As for Enkidu's side, it's interesting how the "humans" in his life affected him- Gil is his current personality, Shamhat is his body and Humbaba is his initial sense of self and kindness. Gil's side is the one most often brought up and consequently the least interesting one to me, so it's nice to see the other stages of his life.

Though seriously, what the heck is up with aesthetics of Sumerian gods if that's their definition of perfect human, it's akin to a child stacking Lego bricks on top of one another without care rather than following the instructions for the piece on the box and declaring the end result better just cause it was taller

[fumei]

Is " " supposed to feel in the space for something we can't conceive

「　」 [Others]
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".
Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

.

[noname14]

As for Enkidu's side, it's interesting how the "humans" in his life affected him- Gil is his current personality, Shamhat is his body and Humbaba is his initial sense of self and kindness

Acording to Enkidu's 2nd interlude in FGO:

The "Enkidu" we know is a complication of what Enkidu learned through meeting important people of his life. He met them, witnessed their strongest trait in his opinion and then take that trait into his own as a form of learning.
For Shamhat, it was kindness
For Gil, it was strength
For Siduri, it was trust
Hence, he is as kind as Shamhat, equal to Gil at power, and trusts Gil as much as Siduri did
For Humbaba, it was hope.

just saying

[mami-kouga]

Acording to Enkidu's 2nd interlude in FGO:

The "Enkidu" we know is a complication of what Enkidu learned through meeting important people of his life. He met them, witnessed their strongest trait in his opinion and then take that trait into his own as a form of learning.
For Shamhat, it was kindness
For Gil, it was strength
For Siduri, it was trust
Hence, he is as kind as Shamhat, equal to Gil at power, and trusts Gil as much as Siduri did
For Humbaba, it was hope.

just saying

Hope, huh...I wonder if maybe they'll get a happier ending from all of this.

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Also this just makes me want to see more of Shamhat herself

[Zork Knight]

No, the blank is supposed to be a very literal void. The same void used describe Shiki's (and implicitly Musashi's) connections with the Root.

But how would you go from beauty to the most literal nothing