Fortissimo EXA//Akkord:Bsusvier : Discussion and Video Walkthrough

**Eveonder** · May 8th, 2011, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mellon

Nothing to pay homage about. Hrunting was hardly original to begin with. Off the top of my head I can think of at least three examples from mythology alone that have some aspect of "homing attack" or "never miss" attached to them. Hell, there is as much basis on an assumption that the writer used homing missiles as inspiration or something like that.

While fortissimo does borrow quite a few things from FSN (mainly in the beginning of the story), copying Hrunting is a rather empty claim. You might as well say that because it has explosions, it copies BP Caladbolg. It was "cookie-cutter" ability, something hardly unique to Archer, nothing more.

As for heroines, Miki-chan ftw.

That's not what I mean. It's not an empty claim, considering Sayuki is basically built on an EMIYA template. She's replacing Archer's black and white K&B with guns but she takes his strategy to win approach, hiding abilities, analyzing the opponents, and reinforcing one's body. Considering how many other things they ripped from F/SN, the fact her 'current' ultimate attack resembles one of Archer's techniques considering her template, my claim isn't so empty.

As for Nagisa, well, I thought, Nagisa was getting together with Ryuchi, meh.

**Kratosirving** · May 8th, 2011, 09:07 AM

Heh, I have one thing to correct you on here.

Originally Posted by Eveonder

the fact her ultimate attack resembles one of Archer's techniques considering her template, my claim isn't so empty.

Who said Weiss Schwarz was Sayuki's ultimate attack? It is her trump card because she keeps it hidden, but that was revealed at the beginning of the story. Characters, and their powers, grow.

Also, I'll grant you merit of Utamaru and Archimedes being like Kansho and Bakuya, but the origin behind is completely different.

As for Nagisa, she has probably the best female GAR moment of any heroine I've ever seen, and is right behind Momiji for me.

**Eveonder** · May 8th, 2011, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Kratosirving

Heh, I have one thing to correct you on here.

Who said Weiss Schwarz was Sayuki's ultimate attack? It is her trump card because she keeps it hidden, but that was revealed at the beginning of the story. Characters, and their powers, grow.

As for Nagisa, she has probably the best female GAR moment of any heroine I've ever seen, and is right behind Momiji for me.

Well, what is currently in your wonderful walkthrough, her known ultimate attack... I wouldn't be surprised if she developed an Avalon, Excalibur, Rho Aius, or Caladbolg II. K&B guns are ~~prana~~magic efficient after all.

**Kratosirving** · May 8th, 2011, 09:24 AM

Well, you'll have to wait and see, hehe. ^_^ I prefer to call them kitty guns myself.

**Mellon** · May 8th, 2011, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Eveonder

That's not what I mean. It's not an empty claim, considering Sayuki is basically built on an EMIYA template. She's replacing Archer's black and white K&B with guns but she takes his strategy to win approach, hiding abilities, analyzing the opponents, and reinforcing one's body. Considering how many other things they ripped from F/SN, the fact her 'current' ultimate attack resembles one of Archer's techniques considering her template, my claim isn't so empty.

As for Nagisa, well, I thought, Nagisa was getting together with Ryuchi, meh.

You do know that none of the things you attribute Archer ("strategy to win", analyzing opponents, etc) are really something that "belong" to him, right? By your train of thought, Archer rips off more combat pragmatists that I can name. Barring his background (being Shirou from the future), there is hardly anything original or unique about Archers way of combat and fighting mindset.

Hell, you can even claim that most of Archers "combat mindset" is directly flinched from Miyamoto Musashi if you want to. Almost every character in current modern literature is a reshuffled Archetype. Saying that X character rips of character Y in personality or mindset is rather pointless if character Y ripped it off himself.

Also pretty sure that the guns themselves are another Da Capo reference.

**Kratosirving** · May 8th, 2011, 09:52 AM

Utamaru is, I don't remember an Archimedes from the Da Capo series myself. Than again, I only read the original versions of D.C. 1 and D.C. 2 P.C., none of the fan discs.

**Mellon** · May 8th, 2011, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Kratosirving

Utamaru is, I don't remember an Archimedes from the Da Capo series myself. Than again, I only read the original versions of D.C. 1 and D.C. 2 P.C., none of the fan discs.

Oh wait... Archimedes is a Suika reference, if I recall correctly. Sorry about that.

**Eveonder** · May 8th, 2011, 10:03 AM

What you said is true but too many qualities overlap. None of those things I attribute to Archer belong to him but he is made up of a unique combination of those traits. Sayuki happens to copy a large number of those traits making her more similar to Archer than any other character (outside Nasuverse). Sure Musashi used two weapons and had a combat mindset, but he didn't magically strength his body or use a identical named weapons one in each hand that are black and white. Sure those guns are named after Da Capo but still.

"Saying that X character rips of character Y in personality or mindset is rather pointless if character Y ripped it off himself."

That is definitely true but at the same time, you're stretching that concept beyond its limits. You might as well say Fortissimo EXA//Akkord:Bsusvier did not copy FSN at all because FSN was copied from older sources. You might as well claim Shakespeare's plays are all original works rather than compositions based off older stories. Plus, I'm not saying X character rips off character Y in a specific trait. I'm saying character X rips off character Y in most all traits except gender as a base. The character may develop away from that base.

**Kratosirving** · May 8th, 2011, 10:15 AM

Actually, they're not as alike as you're trying to say, but I won't deny that they are similar. I prefer to think of it like this: Character and personality wise they're completely different. Combat wise is their only real similarity, and even than they're still pretty different since Sayuki sticks to ranged combat 99% of the time.

So, in essence, their like parallel lines. Or opposites of the same coin. Or black and white.

**Eveonder** · May 8th, 2011, 10:21 AM

Well... I won't deny they're different. They're two characters after all, but in order to make my argument she's based off Archer, similarities had to be emphasized. My first thought was Illya but the fight scene is reminiscent of Archer. Actually, if they hadn't included the fight for the wish, Nero Apocalypse, not-Shirou, and so on, I might have put it off as a coincidence.

**Kratosirving** · May 8th, 2011, 10:37 AM

Yeah, and that's why I understand the comparison to Archer, even though I never even thought of it, since I see Archer as the character and not the fighter, and I see him and Shirou in two of the other characters. I know that ANY comparison from anything here will come from FSN, and I accept it. Well, back to working on Scene 23.

**Mellon** · May 8th, 2011, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Eveonder

What you said is true but too many qualities overlap. None of those things I attribute to Archer belong to him but he is made up of a unique combination of those traits. Sayuki happens to copy a large number of those traits making her more similar to Archer than any other character (outside Nasuverse). Sure Musashi used two weapons and had a combat mindset, but he didn't magically strength his body or use a identical named weapons one in each hand that are black and white. Sure those guns are named after Da Capo but still.

"Saying that X character rips of character Y in personality or mindset is rather pointless if character Y ripped it off himself."

That is definitely true but at the same time, you're stretching that concept beyond its limits. You might as well say Fortissimo EXA//Akkord:Bsusvier did not copy FSN at all because FSN was copied from older sources. You might as well claim Shakespeare's plays are all original works rather than compositions based off older stories. Plus, I'm not saying X character rips off character Y in a specific trait. I'm saying character X rips off character Y in most all traits except gender as a base. The character may develop away from that base.

Lol at Archer (who is the most unoriginal character in FSN, sans backstory), being considered "unique" in any way.

Secondly, as Kratos brought out, as characters, they have almost no overlap whatsoever. Their personalities are completely different. Sayuki is neither sarcastic, ruthless nor bitter, all of which are cornerstones of Archers character. The only similarities you can bring out is that their fighting styles resemble each others and that is nowhere near to say that "Sayuki copies all traits from Archer except gender". And even that is slightly iffy, because almost none of the things you bring out are unique to Archer in any way, even when you are talking about Archers fighting style as a whole.

And as said before, the guns are a reference, rather then any attempt to copy Archer. Utamaru is a white cat from Da Capo and Archimedes is a black cat from Suika.

**Kratosirving** · May 8th, 2011, 10:57 AM

Heh, did a quick search on Suika, and I see it's another Circus game. Thanks for the info there Mellon.

**Eveonder** · May 8th, 2011, 11:08 AM

As for Archer being the most unoriginal character in FSN, that's your opinion isn't it? His skill set and combat attitude is unique in the small point if not overall. Otherwise you might as well claim all fighters are similar because they fight.

Sorry, I meant to write almost... I wrote most all instead.

Sayuki's a heroine in a battle VN mainly targeted at males, Archer isn't. It's obvious their personalities aren't going to be similar at all, but in this genre, battle and powers are some of the most defining features of any character.

Kratos can also understand the comparison to Archer, whereas you outright deny it. It doesn't make Sayuki worse as a character if she were some modified Archer. It just makes me go 'lol' and not like her as much for being a fake. But a fake can surpass the original. Shakespeare surpass all those before him despite his lack of original work.

Being a reference to cats by Circus is not exclusive to being a rip off from Archer. (Speaking of Suiki, I only finished the first character and got bored. The only Circus games from MG worth buying are Kotori and D.C.II)

**Mellon** · May 8th, 2011, 11:10 AM

Oh, this is a bit off topic, but having finished 11eyes, I moved on to this:

Spoiler:

Sayuki's a heroine in a battle VN mainly targeted at males, Archer isn't. It's obvious their personalities aren't going to be similar at all, but in this genre, battle and powers are some of the most defining features of any character.

Bullshit. They are a part of a character, but hardly the most important part of it. Shirou for example is much more defined as a character by his ideal and how he acts rather then UBW. Rin is defined by her Tsun-tsun behaviour and magus/good person dilemma, rather then by the fact that she can shoot Gandrs.

Battle powers are rather small part of a character and the only original fact about Archers fighting style is "2 black and white swords". That is it. You cant even say that Archer was the first to "bring those things together", since a "strategical fighter using swords" is hardly anything original.

If you look just at Archers fighting style (and completely disregard his personality), then he is even more cookie-cutter knockoff.