For Circuit Quality, you can look at it this way:Originally Posted by Andoriol
Rin has 40 Natural Circuits, with a total capacity of 1000, giving her Circuits an output of around 25 Units of Prana per Circuit.
Shirou has 27 Circuits, each of which can handle 10 units of prana- Meaning that 1 of Rin's Circuits=2.5 of Shirou's in terms of output.
So yeah, Shirou's Circuits are pretty shit. Good thing for him he gets a HUGE discount on Swords (ie, the one thing he can do)
Last edited by forumghost; March 3rd, 2014 at 06:52 PM.
Oh obviously. I dont' care though~ I'm enjoying myself. Really, I just need to settle onto a pragmatic adaptation for my own sanity.
... wait, what? Run that by me again?That said, Shirou is above the average Clock Tower magi, IIRC, not the average magi. Clock Tower magi are usually though as the elite in comparison with the rest. Of course, you should take this with a grain of salt, because, again, we are thinking about this more than Nasu.
You are getting it wrong. I have no idea what that 25-40 units (30 for Shirou) is referring to but it's not total prana capacity (as you can probably tell from 270 units not being equal to 30 units). Shirou's max should be 270 during HF5, Rin's is 1000, Sakura's is 1000. Use those values.
As for that 25-40 units value, it's possibly the od stored in the spiritual body that can be instantly converted into prana (because mana takes much longer to convert than od). But this is just my speculation since there is absolutely no proper explanation. Considering that Nasu changed the value from 40 to 25 when writing Fate, it may be some random value he thought up on the spot because lolnasu.
I may be wrong and right now I don't feel like checking it again, but the quote I remember said something like "The average Clock tower magus has around 20 circuits" and the Clock Tower is the magical association with the best reputation, the elite of the associations, if you prefer.
Spoiler:
The overall global average for circuits per person is more likely between 0 and 1 with mages coming out with one or two.
Od = Lifeforce/Heat, right? So what if the 20-40 is the life energy stored in the body and 270 is the "greatest amount that can be processed in a single instance of use".
In other words, his circuits can process far more od than his body can generate.
That is just how I read it, though that also somewhat explains archer's level of power. (not entirely though.)
Just my rambling thoughts.
So, using this, I think I've got a basic concept now.
Assuming a system somewhere between D&D Psionics and Spellpower, a 1st level spell would cost 1 unit, second level 3 units, fourth level 7 units, etc. and a ninth level spell would cost 17 units.
9th level effects don't seem to be outside of the capability of Thaumaturges, but something only a dedicated, talented, and specialized person can achieve.
However, the scale between 1st and 9th level effects is not linear, and while it's not an aggressive exponential curve, it is exponential.
Remembering that Psions must literally ingrain their magics into their minds permanently in order to use them and that Wizards require several pages worth of spell stored in their head to cast a single spell (one page per level of the spell), this gives me reason to believe that the amount of 'absolute' energy in the effects is more aggressively exponential than the linear increase in costs for the user.
As Nasuverse spellcasters do not have the 'cheats' that Wizards or Psions do in D&D (the Arcane Language and the ability to tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut the fuck up with your brain respectively), they have difficulty reaching the upper reaches of magic compared to D&D.
Current Thoughts: The Arcane Language converts the users Od into Prana directly and effectively multiplies it based on the number of pages of the language used. Actual formula up in the air until I can get a more concrete cost for a Nasuverse spell or can figure out how to represent what Shirou does in D&D terms*, but the concept is that the spellpower cost of magic is the literal Od cost from the spellcaster (First level spells cost 1 Od, fifth level spells cost 9 Od, etc.) for the sake of convenience. Using magic in the heat of battle increases the maximum amount of Od the body can use at one moment as well as its maximum capacity. Stat-bonuses to Spellpower/Power Points are increased efficiency with this energy rather than granting extra amounts.
This only works because they are exercising their Od without using Circuits in a high-mana (or would it be Grain?) environment like D&D-verses.
Magic Circuits store Od and convert it into prana. But they are limited by their capacity for any single instance of power. The kicker is the element/origin of the user. These act as cost reducers, and when aligned have a synergistic effect. Shirou is an exception in that his are perfectly aligned for a large boost.
*Seriously, bit of a weird question, but does anyone know of a D&D spell that lets you create a temporary weapon? I know I've seen them but I can't seem to find any!
Edit: Alternatively, what do people consider the most powerful effect someone like Rin or Ciel can perform by dumping most of their Prana on something?
Last edited by Andoriol; March 4th, 2014 at 02:22 AM.
Rin can do mini excaliblasts by pumping prana on the Jewelled Sword Zelretch. That's one of her feats in Heavens Feel. With enough training and learning from the Wizard Marshall, she can theoretically inherit the Second and go wild from there.
Ciel can theoretically go all Overload and supercharge her spells to the maximun level. And her magecraft is Roa's magecraft, who is one of the 100 best magi in history, IIRC.
And something I had been thinking for a while. If you want to adapt the Nasuverse to TRPG terms, why not use Anima instead of D&D. Most of the things you are trying to adapt are already adapted there, and it has already something called Eyes of Death (although they are way weaker than the Nasuverse ones, but still). Unlimited Blade Works can be created with one of the illusion spells of that game (given, it's the highest level of illusion magic, but that works with Reality Marbles being the greatest magecraft any magus can do that isn't True Magic)
It even works with mana points and all that, and with thousand of points of mana, at that, at higher levels.
Spoiler:
I'm referring more to physical feats rather than generalized stuff. I'm trying to get a gauge of what their amounts of prana can do when maxed out. I should've been more specific, sorry >_<
I'm not using Anima because I don't know the system at all, also, I'm hodge-podging this system together as a baseline to convert various series to for comparison purposes and one of the series I'm converting to is a D&D verse. That said, I'll give it a look as it might serve as a better base system to convert everything else to. Could you give me a basic rundown?And something I had been thinking for a while. If you want to adapt the Nasuverse to TRPG terms, why not use Anima instead of D&D. Most of the things you are trying to adapt are already adapted there, and it has already something called Eyes of Death (although they are way weaker than the Nasuverse ones, but still). Unlimited Blade Works can be created with one of the illusion spells of that game (given, it's the highest level of illusion magic, but that works with Reality Marbles being the greatest magecraft any magus can do that isn't True Magic)
It even works with mana points and all that, and with thousand of points of mana, at that, at higher levels.
Buf, let's see. Anima has 8 stats, Agility, constitution, dexterity, strength, inteligence, perception, power and willpower. The normal, human level has a range from 1 to 10, and above that is called inhuman. Normal characters can't get all the benefits of above 10 in stats without some skill that makes them inhuman. Above 10, the power of the stats grows exponentially, at least when it comes to what it can do to the enviroment (a human with 10 of strenght is the strongest a normal human can be, a human with 20 of strength can lift mountains, by example)
Then we have three types of supernatural skills. The Domini, with the use of Ki (warriors go here), Psychic matrixes (psionics) and Zeon (magic). The Ki is probably the less overpowered (unless you use it really well, and I don't necesarilly mean the character) but it can be completely recovered in a few hours (I have seen a character that could recover his huges reserves of ki in less than an hour, but it was tailored to do that), the matrixes usually can be used for "free", but if you fail the throw you get tired (and you need to rest to recover points of tiredness, and it puts minuses on you) and it can do some pretty nifty effects, and the magic has the biggest reserves, but it's the slowest to recover (and no, there isn't mana potions, before someone ask)
Then you have the archetypes of characters or classes, that makes easier for the character to learn certain skills and techniques (a warrior would gain more martial knowledge than other, non-warrior, classes, and that means more ki techniques and skills, but it would have a harder time learning magic or psychic powers), but it doesn't prevent them for learning (it's just a bad idea, if you want to wield both magic and ki, by example, use a mixed class, it exist).
Each character has advantages and disadvantages that can be picked at the creation, and some of them are needed to use some things (if you want to use magic or matrixes, you need the advantage). And there you can get other things, like special eyes (like the eyes of the death, by example).
About the domini, it has ki skills, like levitation, fly, ki barriers, use of energy with your weapons and armours (attack with elements and defense from elements), techniques (that usually are created by the player, but the books has some examples, and some of them can destroy cities or pull some serious shit effects, and I don't mean just talking about offense), ars magnus (use of special weapons like gunblades or monofilaments, to give some examples, and special techniques that pull just one effect at reduced cost and with greater efficiency than normal techniques)
The magic has normal spells, normal summoning and the use of the tarot summoning. The first one is easy, your typical fantasy spells, with several spheres or schools, like fire, water, air, creation, destruction, illusion or nigromancy, to say some. Then the normal summoning is... well, a bit like what Yuna does in FF X. The player create a creature, and you summon and use it to defend yourself. Or you can summon pre-existing creatures. If you want to keep the creature for your personal use, you have to tame it, though. And then the tarot summoning creates some really powerful, and with that I mean REALLY POWERFUL effects, but you need to find the cards, and it's harder to use. All of this use zeon.
The psychic matrixes, as I said, don't really consume anything unless you fail to use it (the biggest powers, those you want to use in hard fights, are really hard to use, so you can't use them without care), and can do some mixed shit, like creating heat (up to the heat of a volcan), use electromagnetism, accelerate your time, slow your enemies time, freeze things, etc.
The game is long to explain in a single post without specific questions.
Spoiler:
That means that Rin gets like a 0% boost in cost, but in return she is super versatile and has potential to cast any spell. Shirou, who has both affinities of sword gets a total of a... 80 or a 70ish percent cost reduction. Considering Archer could pull off one Excaliblast being prana-deprived in a suicide attack in UBW, he might really have around 1200 units of prana, when Saber almosts dissapears from 1 attack (I'm estimating ing Excalibur costs 750~1000 to pull off successfully,)
Rin: Injecting blood into gems.
Ciel: Abusing Seven for max damage.
And tear off her arm along with her magic crest in the process. I'm sure we'd love another Rin who wants to be an magic girl.
Roa had her body and soul, but Ciel doesn't have Roa's. Actually, I doubt Ciel even want to consider using Roa's magecraft considering she probably/definitely hates every part of him.
Hi there, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviorNasuEMIYA?
Spoiler:
He was bluffing.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
Rin demolished dozens of shadows and "won" that battle before she did some serious damage to her arm, and each of those shadows were a mini excaliblast, so it's safe to say that she can overuse the Second at least a bit before completely tearing her arm, and it's not like she needs to brute force so much usually. That was because she needed to match Sakura's supply.
About Ciel, Nasu said that she has the same magecraft than Roa, it's just that she doesn't want to use it ever, because it shames her to use anything from Roa. But if she wants, she can do it.
Spoiler:
Ciel is Roa, just like SHIKI is and Roa was.
It's not life energy that's stored, it's prana that's stored. Everyone's od should be basically the same.
Prove it.
Eeeh, Ciel with all the training she has by Tsukihime vs Roa with Ciel's body = Roa wins in a physical fight, so how complete her reproduction of his magecraft would be is arguable.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
Wasn't that something about the mentality, or something? Anyway, that was some of those bits of info Nasu gives than would never be confirmed because it will never happen, just like that theoretical battle between Archer and Saber where the winner would be decided by the masters (Shirou and Rin) instead of the Servants. The closest we have seen was Archer alone againstAvvie-sanShirou and Saber, and that ended, after several tries whereAvvie-sanShirou didn't even remember his own magecraft, in a win for teamAvvie-sanShirou, once he remembered he can project Rho Aiass.
Spoiler:
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