Heaven's Feel Movies

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Good to see someone who does not have her as favourite but understand her role

I would like some "action" moments with her like in HA final battle? Sure, but we dont need a rin clone when we already have rin. Variety on character types is never bad

Yeah, I don't love Sakura the way I love Rin, but I understand her role in the narrative, and I respect her struggle to define herself.

[Laserman]

Nasu was young when he wrote FSN. He thought what he wrote was good and cool (obviously, since he put it out), like people usually do about their own work. Now he's grown older and general rule of thumb is that when you get older you look back at stuff you did in the past and you think they're shit. Nasu happens to think Sakura was especially shit in this sense. He didn't want HF animated cuz he thought everyone else would see what he saw nowadays, but he was wrong, cuz he's just seeing it through the tint of "ah no not my work from my younger days it's so cringe" while everyone else just saw it as the same thing as always.

Saying that if he doesn't think it's fine now he shouldn't have written it back then doesn't really hold up because in that case you're basically implying that most people do not regret or look back poorly on what they did when they were younger, which is something most people do, and I'm sure you relate to personally as well, even if not about a published work.

That makes sense.

[Altima of the Gates]

Good to see someone who does not have her as favourite but understand her role

I would like some "action" moments with her like in HA final battle? Sure, but we dont need a rin clone when we already have rin. Variety on character types is never bad

If Sakura chose to fight, it wouldn't mean she was copying Rin, because the two would likely have different motives.
For instance, Rin wants to enter the Holy Grail War so she can glorify her family, the wish she even says she would reject as she wants to accomplish her goals with her own hands. If I remember right, her and Ilya were basically in agreement that they treated the war as a competition with other master rather than a war to gain a wish.
Sakura doesn't feel that pull to fight, both for her situation where fighting is just a stupid idea with her energy being drained constantly and the fact that killing for sport isn't really something she grooves to. Rather than saying she is a pacifist, it would clearer to interpret her as cooly and rationally not seeing a point to participate unless grave circumstances arise.

[Inuhanyou]

Yeah, I don't love Sakura the way I love Rin, but I understand her role in the narrative, and I respect her struggle to define herself.

Indeed. That is how i feel in regards to Arturia to the other two(although i dont really see rin as flawed perse just not my fave)

[TheSeaDragon]

If Sakura chose to fight, it wouldn't mean she was copying Rin, because the two would likely have different motives.
For instance, Rin wants to enter the Holy Grail War so she can glorify her family, the wish she even says she would reject as she wants to accomplish her goals with her own hands. If I remember right, her and Ilya were basically in agreement that they treated the war as a competition with other master rather than a war to gain a wish.
Sakura doesn't feel that pull to fight, both for her situation where fighting is just a stupid idea with her energy being drained constantly and the fact that killing for sport isn't really something she grooves to. Rather than saying she is a pacifist, it would clearer to interpret her as cooly and rationally not seeing a point to participate unless grave circumstances arise.

Makes sense, anyways i was not a reply to you specifically, but to the argument about her being different to most charactes in the novel

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Indeed. That is how i feel in regards to Arturia to the other two(although i dont really see rin as flawed perse just not my fave)

So you're saying Artoria is your fave? Was a bit confused by the wording. Btw, I love Artoria, just not as a waifu. I prefer her as Rin and Shirou's BFF.

[Inuhanyou]

So you're saying Artoria is your fave? Was a bit confused by the wording. Btw, I love Artoria, just not as a waifu. I prefer her as Rin and Shirou's BFF.

Yeah shes my fave. I also conversely have a hard time seeing her as a third wheel or a platonic character in the harem, cause i took to the Shirou x Arturia ship early as my OTP and Rin was so entertaining as a wingman in that position whereas in the other case Arturia is just kinda there taking up space. (Not to say i dislike shirou x rin or anything, its a cute ship, just not my fave. )

Of course i am also aware that how arturia is.portrayed or "seems most natural as" depends on when and where one started fate too so i have tried to be accomodating of that as well like with zero.

If i didnt already like them, FHA made me a fan of all 3 main FSN ships(and even ships that dont show up in the main game).

When i finished hf for the first time i was so down on sakura and hf in general that it put me off of fate for a while. It took reading that in its entirety to make me reexamine everything by going back and rereading FSN. Only then did i gain a true appreciation for the character and what it took for sakura to get from one place to another so to speak.

[Heart]

I remember when I first read the VN, there were many things going through my head as I went from one page to another. I never particularly cared about the Fate route, but I did enjoy its ending and resolution. UBW was entertaining too, a much action-based and focused on the Archer/Shirou dilemma as its core. But HF for me was gripping, I remember rushing through it holding my breath because I wanted to know what would happen next. Everything was at stake, whatever Shirou was in Fate/UBW has been shattered and there's nothing he could do to go back as it was before. I rooted for Sakura and Shirou so hard, for them to find that happiness they were denied. I understand why people may not like Sakura, and I can agree her role in the VN as a whole is not much, taking in consideration what Rin and Saber do in comparison. But for me, it was that spark of hope that burnt amid the absolute dark that made HF for me the best route. I still feel a bit let down of what Nasu says nowadays about his feelings regarding the handling of Sakura as a heroine. I still think she feels the most human character in the novel for me, someone who endured way too much, and just looked for quiet days of everyday happiness in a cruel world.

[Inuhanyou]

Sakura is certainly tragic character who deserved a better life than the one foisted onto her. But originally i felt that her lack of presence made it hard to see. I didnt feel bad for her as a character because i felt then that she only existed as a potential scenario bad enough for Shirou to be forced into another path in his life, as well as an antagonist he had to "save" which left a bad taste in my mouth.

Beyond that, it felt too over the top and edge to take seriously regarding the things she had to endure, and made her feel less like a real character and more like a plot device and a cheap way to try and get emotion out of the player as a result. I originally read hf back when there was no realta nua patch so that contributed.

It really helped that i read tsukihime during my fate hiatus. The hisui route has certain clear paralells with HF, but in that context Sakuras ordeals really hit me along with kohakus i would say more down to earth approach to violence of that level. It made me see just how much you can miss how charactera can keep things inside of themselves ready to burst out at any moment.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

So I'm not the only one who thought Sakura's ordeal was slightly over the top? Either way, I do still feel for her and was invested in her struggle in HF, though I agree that HF seems to invalidate Shirou's growth in other routes and seemingly does not allow for middle ground between giving up his dream entirely and becoming Archer as a result.

[TheSeaDragon]

Its over the top? Sure, but so is archer. It isnt over the top that a guy lives in so much misery for an eternity that he wants to kill his younger self, wich is other way to say he wants to kill himself ? I think te sexual stuff in sakura would make some people uncomfortable , and i understand it. But something horrific was needed to make shirou change his view ,anything less would make her just another person in need of help. A character being a plot device is not bad per se as long as the plot can move someone, and i wil say she is not "just" a plot device, she is actually a quite human character-

[Laserman]

Dunno if other people have been having difficulties for tickets to actually go on sale, but my closest theater finally popped them up for the 18th. Keep checking if you plan to go!

Do you actually plan on seeing the movie in a theater? I almost forgot that was even happening.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Its over the top? Sure, but so is archer. It isnt over the top that a guy lives in so much misery for an eternity that he wants to kill his younger self, wich is other way to say he wants to kill himself ? I think te sexual stuff in sakura would make some people uncomfortable , and i understand it. But something horrific was needed to make shirou change his view ,anything less would make her just another person in need of help. A character being a plot device is not bad per se as long as the plot can move someone, and i wil say she is not "just" a plot device, she is actually a quite human character-

I never said anything about her being a bad character. I just think the rape, while starting out relatively grounded, eventually feels like it's being used specifically as a grimdark element or some twisted fetish as opposed to being an integral part of Sakura's trauma. Again, it's not that bad, and I still love HF, even if it's not my fave. As for Archer, his suffering is spoken of in rather general terms, and more focus is given on how it broke Archer than on the gory details of what he did. We don't get gory flashbacks of him massacring humans the way we get descriptions of Sakura's fucked up sexual history, and it's not a source of fa service.

[bassgs435]

When is Sakura's suffering used as fanservice? Like FSN doesn't have any explicit scenes with CGs showing what she was going through or anything.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I dunno. It's pretty subjective, after all. I just feel the rape bits got a bit grimdark. Also, her Madonna-Whore complex was definitely a bit fanservicey in a dark way.

[TheSeaDragon]

When is Sakura's suffering used as fanservice? Like FSN doesn't have any explicit scenes with CGs showing what she was going through or anything.

Im a HF fan , but it kinda is. I mean, not in a straight way but with her needing sex and stuff, thats somewhat using it as a fanservice, but hey , is the same novel where you have a threesome with king arthur and a high school girl earlier, so for each rute, i rather focus in the actual themes instead or the stuff nasu had to put so it would sell more, and HF themes are beyond the sex scenes

Honestly, if i had to rewrite HF, i would not change much, maybe get rid of the worms ? and portray her torture in a way everyone could take it more seriously , but even i understand why they are here , we see " the backside" of fate, the sorcery world Rin introduced us to in the prologue is actually rotten , and we need to be horrified , but i dont forget how the worms looked originally, instead of being horrified,a lot of people turned them into a meme

PD : The title should be changed, movie is not on "hiatus" anymore, it has been out for a month and half in japan and other places and it already have a date for USA

[bassgs435]

I've read my share of eroge. If they wanted to use it as fanservice, we would have seen her being raped by Shinji or the worms, there's a reason we didn't. The threesome was a sex scene. Sakura being raped isn¡'t. All we're shown is her sex with the person she loves
Maybe Nasu went too far with the crest worms design and how they work and could've done it differently. But that's a flaw that I don't see being a result of fanservice.

[Altima of the Gates]

I dunno. It's pretty subjective, after all. I just feel the rape bits got a bit grimdark. Also, her Madonna-Whore complex was definitely a bit fanservicey in a dark way.

Honestly, its pretty much because people have a filter that tries to say life can't be that bad, so if you go over a certain threshold the filter goes off. I echo the sentiments that this is a universe where shit is this bad, all the time. Children being used to experiment with magical disease, a guy who knocks up a one year old homunculus he basically molded into his wife and having a half breed homunculus daughter who was modified in the womb and then experimented on outside of it, orphans rotting in a basement alive, the list goes on. And I also echo the statement that there are far more extreme scenarios that people don't really blink an eye at and just read the story.
They distinctly show that she is a magical experiment, and that the scenes that show the familiars making her body respond with stimulation also say that she is being asphyxiated. Its uncomfortable because if someone was experimenting on the body of someone you knew like that, it wouldn't be pretty or nice. It would uncomfortable and vile, but that would be the point about why Sakura retreats from people, because its hard to feel proud of yourself when you are that degraded(kinda hot take, but its why Rin is terribad actually bringing her up out of the depression, trying to force her to feel dignified but not really grasping why its hard for her to feel proud, to have confidence, Shirou kinda sorta points it out but his admiration of Rin stops him from really hammering that point home for her).
That alienation would suck to live with, and its a part of her character that you have to see in order to get the whys and how's of her thought processes.
That said, Nasu does say that her story is sexual in nature, but its doesn't mean what's depicted isn't harmful. Sadists likely could get off to that, but people can get off to anything, so what's the point?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I might have worded that wrong. Really, I think Nasu got into the trap of using rape as a shorthand for grimdark in HF, even when he didn't need to. If I were to rewrite HF, I would have removed either the Shinji rape or the very sexual aspect of the Crest worms, but not both. The Crest Worms mechanics feel so hyperspecific to make it affect women in a kinky way, as opposed to men, who just get eaten.

[Laserman]

I might have worded that wrong. Really, I think Nasu got into the trap of using rape as a shorthand for grimdark in HF, even when he didn't need to. If I were to rewrite HF, I would have removed either the Shinji rape or the very sexual aspect of the Crest worms, but not both.

So Realta Nua?

The Crest Worms mechanics feel so hyperspecific to make it affect women in a kinky way, as opposed to men, who just get eaten.

Wait, what?