Heaven's Feel Movies

[warellis]

One could argue that Saber's flaw of being so perfect others resented her for it isn't really a flaw.

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I do like a relatively low-key moment where one of Rin's character flaws are displayed quite nicely: right after her date with Shirou, when he's literally thinking he doesn't deserve being happy after surviving the fire, she's very, very unsympathetic toward him. It's understandable, since she didn't have all the facts, but she knew he was used to being around death and that he had suffered some kind of trauma.

You mean that bit in Day 7 where he casually tells Rin how he's used to seeing dead bodies?:
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20159/

Since we left the classroom, Tohsaka's only been looking at me as if she wants to say something.

"Tohsaka, come out and say it if you want to say something. I feel weird if you're quiet."
Um, in fear of not knowing when I'll get hit from behind.

""
Tohsaka stares at me for a while, and with a serious face…

"Emiya-kun. You're pretty calm. It's a bit unexpected."
…Says this.

"……? I'm not calm. My head got all boiled up too. We both lost our composure out of anger."

"But you figured out everyone's condition. I couldn't do that."

"Oh, that? It's nothing much. I was only able to tell since I'm used to seeing dead bodies."

"Huh? 'Used to seeing dead bodies'…?"

We walk away while we talk.
This place will get rowdy once the ambulances arrive.
We'll go to the back gate through the woods and get out of the school from there.

Shirou responding like that felt weird.

Also reading that scene again, yeah Rin was an ass there:
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20185/

Right when we start to head home…
Tohsaka suddenly asks that question.

"Huh?"
I don't even need to answer.
It was fun.
It's like I got thrown in a washing machine and turned around and around.
I feel like my nervousness got washed away along with the dirt.
But…

"So? Was it fun, Shirou?"
"I give up. It's been a long time since I've played this much. Man, you really did take me to so many places."
Um, the more fun it is…
The more awkward I get, feeling that such a thing is more than I deserve.

"…I see. I don't know what you're thinking about, but honestly tell me it was fun if it was. You're being rude to the one that escorted you."

"Huh…? No, that's not what I meant."

"Yes, that's what you meant. You're unconsciously putting brakes on. …Heh, I don't know what happened to you before, but why don't you just forget it if it's so painful?"

""
…My breath stops.
It feels like she stuck a knife into my wound with amazing precision.

"Tohsaka, that's…"

"It's not something I care about. …Well, I fulfilled my original objective, so it's all your problem now."
With her hair trailing behind her, Tohsaka heads to the hill road.
Not towards the Western-style houses, but to the Japanese-style houses.

"……"
I stand there in a daze.

[weeblord]

People getting pissy at Saber because she’s too perfect is more of a flaw of everyone but Saber imo. Bitch ass haters.

[Inuhanyou]

One could argue that Saber's flaw of being so perfect others resented her for it isn't really a flaw.
.

Her character wasnt perfect, how she acted as a king was "perfect" in judgement. The fact that she felt the need to be so in order to rule as overcompensation was a character flaw which lead to failure. In addition, the contradiction of her morality as a chivalrous person despite being utterly ruthless in her attitude as a king is frequently brought up as a reason for her not even being considered one by Iskandar for example and clashing with Kiritsugu.

And her further reckless self hatred and lack of self worth at not realizing this further in FSN is part of the whole story and why she wants to erase herself as a concept while simultaneously judging Shirou for his own reckless self hatred and lack of self worth...Its not all that subtle is my basic point

[Tobias]

Actually it wasn’t an overcompensation to be a king you know. That’s explicitly what broke Lancelot actually. It wasn’t that saber was putting her all into being a knight, it was that she was such a perfect knight it made others self conscious.

lancelot actually noted what drove him insane with guilt was that saber hadn’t forgiven him because she needed to do so for the sake of the knight or the kingdom, her reason for forgiving him was she was just that open minded and gentle. The fact that she had done so while he was bringing her bright kingdom down around her drove him mad with guilt.

to a lesser extent it was the same with the other knights. In both kingly decisions and the rules of knighthood, saber was able to do things the other knights knew they couldn’t, this made them feel guilty and resent her for making their flaws stand out.

[SpoonyViking]

Indeed. Hence Tristan's complaint of "King Arthur isn't human"; it's not that she was merciless and uncomprehending toward human weaknesses, but rather, she didn't display any weaknesses and they felt they couldn't relate to her.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

Actually it wasn’t an overcompensation to be a king you know. That’s explicitly what broke Lancelot actually. It wasn’t that saber was putting her all into being a knight, it was that she was such a perfect knight it made others self conscious.

lancelot actually noted what drove him insane with guilt was that saber hadn’t forgiven him because she needed to do so for the sake of the knight or the kingdom, her reason for forgiving him was she was just that open minded and gentle. The fact that she had done so while he was bringing her bright kingdom down around her drove him mad with guilt.

to a lesser extent it was the same with the other knights. In both kingly decisions and the rules of knighthood, saber was able to do things the other knights knew they couldn’t, this made them feel guilty and resent her for making their flaws stand out.

pretty much, if you read F/Z LN and play Camelot

[Laserman]

"Interlude - Distortion" from Shinji POV.

How do you walk in on something like that accidentally?

[Altima of the Gates]

Isnt the entire point of Arturia that she is literally as broken as Shirou when it comes to following the ideal and they can only live by helping others even if its stupid and contradictory to how the world is and only hurts themselves? That's not really muted at all when it comes to the story.

Every Zero secondaries will tell you how flawed a person Arturia is cause she gets dunked on by pretty much every major character in the series at one point or the other, that's not really being subtle about a character flaw, that's driving it home cause its like the literal point

She got dunked on by Iskandar, but he thought it was sad that she decided to do things that way, she was ridiculed by Gil, but he covets her spirit, Lancelot had serious ants in his pants for her, Kiritsugu was angry in a similar way Alex was with her. So dunked on she was, yes indeed, but there was an odd attra tion on some level by all parties or they liked her but didn't show it.
It's kinda like how Senjougahara makes complaints about Araragi being self sacrificing, but inwardly it makes her hot.

And is it just me, or was the entire situation with Guinevere something that just didn't even need to happen? Like, Guinevere loved her and Lancelot loved her, yet they got punished due to getting frustrated love Jones in what even Saber admitted herself was a loveless marriage?
It shouldn't have even been a thing. Just...I want to paper fan the entire Round Table soundly upside the head.

[Inuhanyou]

Actually it wasn’t an overcompensation to be a king you know. That’s explicitly what broke Lancelot actually. It wasn’t that saber was putting her all into being a knight, it was that she was such a perfect knight it made others self conscious.

lancelot actually noted what drove him insane with guilt was that saber hadn’t forgiven him because she needed to do so for the sake of the knight or the kingdom, her reason for forgiving him was she was just that open minded and gentle. The fact that she had done so while he was bringing her bright kingdom down around her drove him mad with guilt.

to a lesser extent it was the same with the other knights. In both kingly decisions and the rules of knighthood, saber was able to do things the other knights knew they couldn’t, this made them feel guilty and resent her for making their flaws stand out.

Is that so...but i thought it was clearly stated that she intentionally became one with no emotions and ruled because that was the only way she felt she could be a good king, and because of that the people lost touch with any concept of her being a human...or was that something different??

i might be getting confused

[Skull]

And is it just me, or was the entire situation with Guinevere something that just didn't even need to happen? Like, Guinevere loved her and Lancelot loved her, yet they got punished due to getting frustrated love Jones in what even Saber admitted herself was a loveless marriage?
It shouldn't have even been a thing. Just...I want to paper fan the entire Round Table soundly upside the head.

IIRC, that was Agravain and Mordred's machinations that caused the problem to go public and forced Artoria's hand into punishing Guinevere.

[Day]

How do you walk in on something like that accidentally?

Well, live long enough in big mansion and you're bound to find some secret rooms.

Or Zouken orchestrated this so he could manipulate Shinji more effectively and to add more misery to Sakura's life.

You can look at interpretation of this scene in chapter 20 of HF manga.

[SpoonyViking]

And is it just me, or was the entire situation with Guinevere something that just didn't even need to happen? Like, Guinevere loved her and Lancelot loved her, yet they got punished due to getting frustrated love Jones in what even Saber admitted herself was a loveless marriage?

The Nasuverse version of Arthur's story seems to put more emphasis on the whole "the king isn't human!" sentiment than Lancelot and Guinevere's love affair.

[Altima of the Gates]

IIRC, that was Agravain and Mordred's machinations that caused the problem to go public and forced Artoria's hand into punishing Guinevere.

The Nasuverse version of Arthur's story seems to put more emphasis on the whole "the king isn't human!" sentiment than Lancelot and Guinevere's love affair.

Well, in Hollow, they talk a bit about her marriage to Guinevere and how she wanted to give her happiness as a human, so honestly I think she might have missed a couple steps mentally about what exactly trying to keep up a false marriage like that with someone who actually has genuine feelings for you would do.
She isn't without some insight into it, so in that even if there were manipulations from the inside, she seemed to be ripe for the picking so to speak for them.

[eddyak]

She got dunked on by Iskandar, but he thought it was sad that she decided to do things that way, she was ridiculed by Gil, but he covets her spirit, Lancelot had serious ants in his pants for her, Kiritsugu was angry in a similar way Alex was with her. So dunked on she was, yes indeed, but there was an odd attra tion on some level by all parties or they liked her but didn't show it.
It's kinda like how Senjougahara makes complaints about Araragi being self sacrificing, but inwardly it makes her hot.

It's like she tried to embody the Heroic Spirit concept whilst still being alive- the thing about Heroic Spirits is they're an idealised version of the person they're supposed to be, and Artoria went and made herself into an ideal version of herself whilst still alive.

And is it just me, or was the entire situation with Guinevere something that just didn't even need to happen? Like, Guinevere loved her and Lancelot loved her, yet they got punished due to getting frustrated love Jones in what even Saber admitted herself was a loveless marriage?
It shouldn't have even been a thing. Just...I want to paper fan the entire Round Table soundly upside the head.

Something something the rule of law applies even to the king. A proper king isn't somebody who goes round changing laws just because they're inconvenient for him.

[forumghost]

Yeah, there's a saying that you should strive for perfection knowing full well you won't achieve it. Saber looked at it and said "Hold my Beer"

And then all her friends resented her for it.

[Altima of the Gates]

Eh, common sense and actual rational thinking should tell you this wasn't gonna work. Do you need a queen at all?
Laws are made by imperfect humans, they aren't right just on the premise of being law.

[AmADo VII]

The Nasuverse version of Arthur's story seems to put more emphasis on the whole "the king isn't human!" sentiment than Lancelot and Guinevere's love affair.

hey that's Tristan's biggest regret, have mercy on him please.

[Tobias]

It’s because the king wasn’t human was the primary gripe the knights had, and the guinivere situation was a conveniant excuse to work out said greiviances

[aldeayeah]

He only used Caladbolg II for a bad end, where you don't believe in Rider and use an projection to make a distraction.

That's not a bad end. Making an extra projection just stops you from getting the True End (but you still can get the Normal End)

https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20374/

[Nisaba]

I really appreciate all this discussion around best king Arturia. Her strive to be ideal was met with resentment from all those who felt they weren't living up to it. In everything you read about her from others, they try to bring her down to their level. Like with Iskandar or Kiritsugu.

I always recall Garden of Avalon and her stated reason to Merlin for wanting to pull the sword from the stone. She just wanted to see everyone smile, no matter what. I suppose her wanting to be an ideal king was itself a flaw, as people couldn't understand her.

On a happy note, I booked my ticket to see lost butterfly for March in Canada yay!!! It's a relief that it ended up showing here after all.